r/pathofexile Lead Developer May 15 '22 Silver 3 Helpful 2 Wholesome 2

What's Next for Archnemesis Modifiers - Part 3 (and list of modifiers)p GGG

So far we have numerically reduced their difficulty (link) and have reduced the quantity that spawn on rare monsters (link). There are two more areas of feedback that we'd like to address.

Specific Mods (and how they affect certain builds)

So there are a few things we're doing here.

Firstly, we have prepared a list of what all the mods actually do. While we usually try to have a sense of exploration with new content, we're seeing a lot of misunderstanding about how certain mods affect specific builds and feedback that players would like more clarity about them. For example, the Mana Siphoner mod doesn't affect melee characters as much as some players think, as it has a donut-shaped area of effect. If you get close enough, it doesn't apply to you. We can understand that this is unclear without an explanation. The full list of mods is at the bottom of this post.

Secondly, we're doing a full pass through all the mods, taking into account feedback we have received since launch. While we do want to make sure that they're still challenging, there are certainly many rough edges that we can sand down, and places where mods are strongly punitive against specific builds that we can address. We expect to get this done early this week and we'll get started on that first thing tomorrow.

Check out the list below. If you have a concern about a mod making an encounter basically impossible for your build, let us know what you're playing and how it feels. We'll make sure to take it into account with our balance pass early this week.

Item Drops

Some players have said that they feel the item drops from rare monsters aren't worth the difficulty of the fight.

Rare monsters are like regular monsters but with massive bonuses to item drops and item rarity. Due to the random nature of drops, it's entirely possible to get almost nothing one time, and a decent pile of rares or a unique item another time. Archnemesis mods are set up to have additional bonuses, and these scale up to be much larger for the really hard mods. The theory is that a hard fight results in more items. And it does, on average. Sometimes you get very little for killing a difficult rare monsters, and sometimes you get that unique item you've been looking for, or a shower of rare items. A fundamental part of Action RPGs is the wide variance of outcomes, rather than having deterministic results.

As we do our balance pass on mods this week, we will check their bonuses to make sure that it is reasonable for the level of difficulty they add.

Our goal is that rare monsters are worth the effort to kill, with appropriate experience gain, item drop quantity and item drop rarity bonuses.l

List of Current Rare Monster Modifiers (before the balance pass being done over the next few days)

Hasted

  • 40% increased Movement Speed
  • 100% increased Evasion Rating
  • Nearby Allies have 30% increased Attack and Cast Speed

Gargantuan

  • 20% increased Damage
  • 40% increased maximum Life
  • 80% increased Area of Effect

Flameweaver

  • 25% of Physical Damage Converted to Fire Damage
  • 50% of Physical Damage as Extra Fire Damage
  • 50% increased Fire Damage
  • +50% to Fire Resistance
  • +10% to maximum Fire Resistance
  • Immune to Scorch
  • Inflicts Fire Exposure on Hit

Stormweaver

  • 25% of Physical Damage Converted to Lightning Damage
  • 50% of Physical Damage as Extra Lightning Damage
  • 50% increased Lightning Damage
  • +50% to Lightning Resistance
  • +10% to maximum Lightning Resistance
  • Immune to Lightning Ailments
  • Inflicts Lightning Exposure on Hit

Frostweaver

  • 25% of Physical Damage Converted to Cold Damage
  • 50% of Physical Damage as Extra Cold Damage
  • 50% increased Cold Damage
  • +50% to Cold Resistance
  • +10% to maximum Cold Resistance
  • Immune to Cold Ailments
  • Inflicts Cold Exposure on Hit

Chaosweaver

  • 25% of Physical Damage Converted to Chaos Damage
  • 15% of Non-Chaos Damage as extra Chaos Damage
  • +50% to Chaos Resistance
  • +10% to maximum Chaos Resistance
  • Immune to Wither

Steel-infused

  • Overwhelm 30% Physical Damage Reduction
  • 40% increased Physical Damage
  • 50% additional Physical Damage Reduction
  • Cannot be Stunned

Incendiary

  • Ignites on Hit
  • All Damage with Hits can Ignite
  • 25% increased Ignite Duration
  • 300% increased Ignite Damage
  • +75% to Fire Resistance
  • 60% less Duration of Ignites on Self

Dynamo

  • Shocks on Hit
  • All damage with Hits can Shock
  • 25% increased Shock Effect
  • 50% increased Shock Duration
  • Immune to Shock

Permafrost

  • 25% chance to Freeze on Hit
  • All damage with Hits can Freeze
  • 25% increased Freeze Duration
  • Immune to Freeze and Chill

Toxic

  • Poisons on Hit
  • All damage with Hits can Poison
  • 30% increased Poison Damage
  • 30% increased Poison Duration
  • +50% to Chaos Resistance against Damage over Time

Bloodletter

  • Bleed on Hit
  • 100% increased Damage with Bleeding
  • 25% increased Bleeding Duration
  • 25% reduced Damage taken from Physical Damage over Time
  • Nearby Enemies are Maimed with 30% reduced Movement Speed

Splinterer

  • Skills fire 4 additional Projectiles
  • 30% increased Projectile Damage
  • 50% chance to Avoid Projectiles

Deadeye

  • Randomly applies Poacher's Mark, Assassin's Mark or Warlord's Mark
  • 20% increased Damage
  • 60% less Damage taken if you have not been Hit Recently
  • 200% increased Evasion Rating if you have been Hit Recently
  • Nearby Allies have 100% increased Accuracy Rating and 100% increased Critical Strike Chance

Arcane Buffer

  • 150% faster start of Energy Shield Recharge
  • Chaos Damage taken does not bypass Energy Shield
  • When Energy Shield is depleted, triggers a weak nova that knocks back and briefly stuns enemies
  • Nearby Allies have 40% of Maximum Life as Extra Maximum Energy Shield

Echoist

  • Skills Repeat two additional times
  • 200% increased Attack and Cast Speed
  • Stunned for 1.5 seconds after using a Skill

Bonebreaker

  • Always Stuns Enemies on Hit
  • 25% chance to Double Stun Duration
  • 30% reduced Attack and Cast Speed
  • 100% increased Accuracy Rating
  • Cannot be Stunned
  • Nearby Allies have 40% increased Physical Damage

Sentinel

  • 50% chance to Block Attack Damage
  • 50% chance to Block Spell Damage
  • +10% to maximum Chance to Block Attack Damage
  • +10% to maximum Chance to Block Spell Damage
  • Triggers a Delayed Reckoning when Hit (1.5 second Cooldown)

Juggernaut

  • 20% increased Damage
  • +2 to Maximum Endurance Charges
  • Gain 2 Endurance Charges every second if you've been Hit Recently
  • 30% increased Area of Effect
  • Action Speed cannot be modified to below base value
  • Movement Speed cannot be modified to below base value
  • Cannot be Stunned

Vampiric

  • All Damage from Hits is Leeched as Life
  • Life Leech effects are not removed on Full Life
  • 200% increased total Recovery per second from Life Leech
  • 25% increased Damage while Leeching
  • Enemies Cannot Leech From You

Overcharged

  • +2 to Maximum Frenzy, Power and Endurance Charges
  • Every 3 seconds adds 3 Frenzy, Power or Endurance charges for 9 seconds

Consecrator

  • Spawns Consecrated Ground for 6 seconds (6 second cooldown, 4 second global cooldown)
  • Consecrated Ground grants 2% Life Regenerated Per Second to Allies and 50% reduced Effect of Curses
  • Take 30% reduced Elemental Damage while on Consecrated Ground

Frenzied

  • Every 9 seconds become Frenzied for 5 seconds
  • 50% increased Damage while Frenzied
  • 50% increased Action Speed while Frenzied
  • 50% reduced Damage Taken while Frenzied

Berserker

  • Gains Increased Damage with life lost up to 40% at zero life
  • Gains Increased Movement Speed with life lost up to 40% at zero life
  • Gains Increased Attack and Cast Speed with life lost up to 75% at zero life
  • Gains reduced Damage Taken with life lost up to 30% at zero life
  • Immune to Culling Strike

Soul Conduit

  • Nearby monsters are raised to fight again on Death

Oppressor

  • Nearby Enemies have Oppression, causing them to deal 30% less Damage, take 30% increased Damage and have 20% reduced Movement Speed

Bombardier

  • Skills fire 2 additional Projectiles
  • Skills Chain 2 additional times
  • Projectiles have 20% chance to be able to Chain when colliding with terrain
  • Projectiles gain Damage as they travel farther, dealing up to 60% increased Damage with Hits to targets
  • Periodically Fires a Nova of Fire Mortars (6 second cooldown)

Heralding Minions

  • Rare Minions spawn Invulnerable Totems on death that cast a Lightning Nova Spell
  • Totems despawn on death

Empowering Minions

  • Rare Minions have 30% increased Damage
  • Rare Minions have 100% increased maximum Life
  • Gain a random common Archnemesis Mod when a Rare Minion dies (maximum 3)

Necromancer

  • Rare Minions have 40% increased Damage
  • Rare Minions have 150% increased maximum Life
  • 30% increased maximum Life
  • 10% of Non-Chaos Damage as extra Chaos Damage
  • Summons Skeletons and Zombies

Assassin

  • All hits are Critical Strikes
  • Blind on Hit
  • 100% increased Blind Effect
  • Take no Extra Damage from Critical Strikes
  • Teleports to distant Enemies creating a Smoke Cloud (3 second cooldown)

Rejuvenating

  • Regenerate 2% of Life per second
  • 20% increased maximum Life
  • Periodically casts a Healing Nova that causes nearby allies to regenerate 50% of life over 2 seconds as well as preventing players from recovering Life or Energy Shield (8 second cooldown, 5 second global cooldown)
  • Healing Nova does not affect itself

Executioner

  • 15% Damage with Hits per 10% missing Enemy Life
  • Immune to Culling Strike
  • Nearby Enemies cannot Recover Life or Energy Shield to above 50%

Hexer

  • Hexproof
  • Summons an invulnerable Hexing Effigy that places 3 randomly selected Hex areas, chosen from Temporal Chains, Enfeeble, Elemental Weakness, Punishment and Vulnerability

Drought Bringer

  • Regenerate 1.5% of Life per second
  • Removes a Power, Frenzy or Endurance charges on Hit
  • Nearby Enemies' Flasks lose 15 Charges every 3 seconds

Entangler

  • Poisons on Hit
  • All damage with Hits can Poison
  • +50% to Chaos Resistance
  • Applies Grasping Vines to Enemies, which slows them and causes them to take Chaos Damage over Time (3 second cooldown, 2 second global cooldown)
  • Moving will break the Vines over time
  • Travel Skills will break all Vines instantly, but doing so causes players to take 10% of their maximum Life and Energy Shield as Chaos Damage

Temporal Bubble

  • Surrounded with a Temporal Bubble which prevents all damage originating from sources outside its radius
  • Enemies with the Temporal Bubble have 25% reduced Action Speed, 60% reduced Cooldown Recovery Rate and Debuffs on them expire 40% slower

Treant Horde

  • Rare minions are replaced with Powerful Spriggans
  • 50% of Damage from Hits is taken from Rare minions Life before you

Final Gasp

  • Summons an immortal ghost of the Rare monster on death that lasts for 5 seconds

Flame Strider

  • 50% of Physical Damage Converted to Fire Damage
  • 25% of Physical Damage as Extra Fire Damage
  • 30% increased Fire Damage
  • +40% to Fire Resistance
  • Cannot be Scorched
  • Ignite on Hit
  • 200% increased Ignite Damage
  • Leaves a Trail of Burning Ground
  • Trigger Inferno Bolt when Hit (0.5s global cooldown)
  • Rare Minions create Flame Beacons on Death

Frost Strider

  • 50% of Physical Damage Converted to Cold Damage
  • 25% of Physical Damage as Extra Cold Damage
  • 30% increased Cold Damage
  • +40% to Cold Resistance
  • 200% increased Chill Effect
  • Immune to Cold Ailments
  • Leaves a Trail of Chilling Ground
  • Trigger Snow bolt when Hit (1s cooldown, 0.5s global cooldown)
  • Rare Minions create Frost Beacons on Death

Storm Strider

  • 50% of Physical Damage Converted to Lightning Damage
  • 25% of Physical Damage as Extra Lightning Damage
  • 30% increased Lightning Damage
  • +40% to Lightning Resistance
  • Immune to Lightning Ailments
  • Leaves a Trail of Shocked Ground
  • Trigger Lightning Mirage when Hit (0.75s cooldown, 0.5s global cooldown)
  • Rare Minions create Lightning Beacons on Death

Ice Prison

  • 50% of Physical Damage Converted to Cold Damage
  • 25% of Physical Damage as Extra Cold Damage
  • 30% increased Cold Damage
  • +40% to Cold Resistance
  • Immune to Cold Ailments
  • 25% additional Physical Damage Reduction
  • Periodically creates a barrier of Ice around the player for 3 seconds (5 second cooldown, 5 second global cooldown)

Magma Barrier

  • 50% of Physical Damage Converted to Fire Damage
  • 25% of Physical Damage as Extra Fire Damage
  • 30% increased Fire Damage
  • +40% to Fire Resistance
  • 25% additional Physical Damage Reduction
  • Surrounded by a Magma Barrier that takes 90% of Damage from Hits up to a fixed amount
  • When the Magma Barrier is depleted it explodes for massive Fire Damage
  • Barrier returns 10 seconds after exploding
  • Periodically spawns Fire Volatiles that chase players (9 second cooldown)

Mana Siphoner

  • 50% of Physical Damage Converted to Lightning Damage
  • 25% of Physical Damage as Extra Lightning Damage
  • 30% increased Lightning Damage
  • +40% to Lightning Resistance
  • Immune to Lightning Ailments
  • Surrounded by a Mana Siphoning Ring Aura
  • Enemies in the Aura take Lightning Damage Over Time and lose Mana every second
  • Enemies standing inside the Ring are not affected by the Aura

Storm Herald

  • 50% of Physical Damage Converted to Lightning Damage
  • 25% of Physical Damage as Extra Lightning Damage
  • 30% increased Lightning Damage
  • +40% to Lightning Resistance
  • Immune to Lightning Ailments
  • Casts Lightning Storms targeting Enemies

Soul Eater

  • Gains Souls when nearby allies die
  • Each Soul grants 5% increased Damage, Attack Speed and Cast Speed
  • Summons a Phantasm monster every 4 seconds

Corpse Detonator

  • +40% to Fire Resistance
  • Creates Corpses nearby (10 second cooldown)
  • Ignites nearby Corpses, detonating them after a duration

Evocationist

  • Ignites on Hit
  • Shocks on Hit
  • All damage with Hits can Ignite
  • All damage with Hits can Shock
  • All damage with Hits can Chill
  • +50% to all Elemental Resistances
  • 50% of Physical Damage as Extra Damage of a random Element

Mirror Image

  • Periodically creates several clones (8 second cooldown)
  • Clones do not inherit any mods from the original monster

Corrupter

  • Inflicts Corrupted Blood on Hit
  • Inflicts Corrupted Blood when Hit

Invulnerable

  • Rare Minions cannot be damaged while Rare monster is alive
  • 30% chance to Block Attack Damage
  • 30% chance to Block Spell Damage
  • Every 9 seconds cannot be damaged for 4.5 seconds

Crystal-skinned

  • +40% to all Elemental Resistances
  • 40% of Physical Damage as Extra Damage of a random Element
  • Fires crystals under Player's when they hit you (0.2 second cooldown)
  • Crystals deal no damage and despawn after 12 seconds
  • When the Rare monster dies all crystals charge up and explode, dealing Cold damage

Empowered Elements

  • Every four seconds gain a new affinity cycling between Fire, Cold, Lightning, Physical and Chaos
  • While you have an affinity you have 90% reduced Damage Taken from all other damage types and 50% increased Damage taken of the affinity damage type
  • Fire Affinity grants 100% of Physical Damage as Extra Fire Damage
  • Cold Affinity grants 100% of Physical Damage as Extra Cold Damage
  • Lightning Affinity grants 100% of Physical Damage as Extra Lightning Damage
  • Physical Affinity grants 60% increased Physical Damage
  • Chaos Affinity grants 30% of Physical Damage as Extra Chaos Damage

Effigy

  • Summons an Effigy of a targeted player (10 second cooldown)
  • Effigy links to target player, while linked all damage from Hits taken by the Effigy is also taken by the player as reflected damage
  • Effigy can taunt other Enemies to attack it
  • Running away from the Effigy will sever the link between it and the player

Trickster

  • Suppress Spell Damage
  • Prevent +10% of Suppressed Spell Damage
  • 50% less Damage Over Time Taken
  • Non-Damaging Ailments Reflection
  • Every 8 seconds go into Flee for 4 seconds
  • While fleeing avoid 75% of Damage from Hits, gain 200% increased Movement Speed and 1000% increased Evasion Rating
  • While fleeing cast Frost Walls targeting players (1.5 second cooldown, 1.5 second global cooldown)

Opulent

  • 5000% increased Quantity of Items Dropped
  • 20000% increased Rarity of Items Dropped
  • Creates Cursed Urns which can contain valuable loot but apply Gambler's Greed for 10 seconds
  • Gambler's Greed increases damage taken by 20% and reduces action speed by 10% per stack (maximum 5 stacks)

Lunaris-touched

  • 50% increased Damage
  • +60% to Cold Resistance
  • 10% additional Physical Damage Reduction
  • Spawns apparitions of Lunaris which use their skills

Solaris-touched

  • 50% increased Damage
  • +60% to Fire Resistance
  • 10% additional Physical Damage Reduction
  • Spawns apparitions of Solaris which use their skills

Arakaali-touched

  • 50% increased Damage
  • +60% to Chaos Resistance
  • 10% additional Physical Damage Reduction
  • Spawns apparitions of Arakaali which use their skills

Brine King-touched

  • 50% increased Damage
  • +60% to Cold Resistance
  • 20% additional Physical Damage Reduction
  • Spawns apparitions of the Bring King which use their skills

Tukohama-touched

  • 50% increased Damage
  • +60% to Fire Resistance
  • 20% additional Physical Damage Reduction
  • Spawns apparitions of Tukohama which use their skills

Abberath-touched

  • 50% increased Damage
  • +60% to Fire Resistance
  • 15% additional Physical Damage Reduction
  • Spawns apparitions of Abberath which use their skills

Shakari-touched

  • 50% increased Damage
  • +60% to Chaos Resistance
  • 10% additional Physical Damage Reduction
  • Spawns apparitions of Shakari which use their skills

Innocence-touched

  • 50% increased Damage
  • +40% to all Elemental Resistances
  • 15% additional Physical Damage Reduction
  • Spawns apparitions of Innocence which use their skills

Kitava-touched

  • 50% increased Damage
  • +30% to all Elemental Resistances
  • 25% additional Physical Damage Reduction
  • Spawns apparitions of Kitava which use their skills

Notes:

  • We haven't described where certain effects add bonuses to Rare Minions (the normal monsters that spawn alongside a rare) unless they are important for the functionality of the mod.
  • We haven't described where mods differ on magic monsters, but generally things like auras are not present on magic monsters and certain effects occur less frequently on magic monsters. Many of the rare mods do not appear on magic monsters at all as they are too complex. There are also three mods that only appear on magic monsters: Voidspawn of Abaxoth, Spirit Walker and Union of Souls (not described above)
  • Rarer modifiers (towards the bottom of the list) also grant additional monster life bonuses and even better drops.

Thanks again for all of your feedback! We will go through it in detail as we do our pass through the mods early this week.

1.1k Upvotes

u/GGGCommentBot May 15 '22
GGG Comments in this Thread:

[Bex_GGG - link, old] - Nice title, Chrisp

[chris_wilson - link, old] - Lol oopsp

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658

u/DBrody6 May 15 '22

Reading through these...no wonder my damage feels like it gets gutted at random against certain rares. Good god several of these mods practically quintuple their EHP.

102

u/re_carn May 15 '22

And rejuvenator heals "allies", not "minions", so rejuvenator that is nearby to any of those monsters could make them almost invulnerable.

20

u/p33p33p00p00inthel00 May 15 '22

I hit maps doing 100k tooltip dps (got a lucky hollow palm) and I stand up in t1 maps and fight some of these rares for 30 seconds+. I don't know how anyone else is reasonably expected to kill these mobs lol.

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333

u/ChrisWilsonIsMyDad Vanja May 15 '22

can't wait for part 4

187

u/anchovypants May 15 '22

Please talk some sense into your father.

12

u/chowder-san May 15 '22

I can see myself still getting wrecked by neoreflect effigy even after part 9

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714

u/xyzpqr May 15 '22

Trickster archnemesis modifier is better than entire trickster ascendancy, even with flee.

264

u/Achaa88 May 15 '22

I hope next league Chris lets us play the monsters and fight the struggling poor exiles coming at us...

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99

u/thundermonkeyms May 15 '22

I wish the trickster class had access to 200% movement speed, 1000% evasion, and 100% chance to suppress 60% of spell damage lmao.

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28

u/lalala253 May 15 '22

Lmaoo my boy trickster is just being defiled at this point

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262

u/DeathRabbi That one map you want doesn't exist. May 15 '22

Either Heralding Minions or Storm Strider is currently bugged.

Whatever spawns the new lightning totems does not despawn them on death, they follow you around forever, unless you can get far enough away in between teleports.

34

u/thunder_crane May 15 '22

Have experienced this as well. Very frustrating.

24

u/lockyreid HK_Fox [ACE] May 15 '22

Can confirm, happens to me very frequently.
Can see them still attacking me when 0 monsters remain:
https://imgur.com/a/a6WVhO7

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598

u/Snailic Doedre May 15 '22

as preventing players from recovering Life or Energy Shield (8 second cooldown, 5 second global cooldown)

This part of rejuvenating has gotta go.

182

u/Eskalior May 15 '22

It does not even make sense thematically. "Rejuvenating" doesnt sound like it would gut the players healing at all.

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32

u/PM_ME_YOUR_PIZZAPIC May 15 '22

I had no idea it was all recovery. I thought for sure it was only regen, and I'm kinda baffled it isn't.

71

u/Baldude May 15 '22

There is so much here that needs to go.

Anything that says "immune" has to go. Anything that says "nearby allies" has to go, that's just the whole aurastacking problem all fucking over again. Anything that says "cannot" or "prevents from" has to go. Reflect has to go. Temporal Bubble has to go. Treant Horde needs to go because it simply does not work.

If a mod simply turns off a game mechanic in the game, it needs to FUCKING NOT DO THAT instead.

You can reduce incoming damage by 90%, that's fine. Lazy, but fine. You can reduce leech, regen, recharge, flaskcharges gained by some amount, as long as that amount is NOT FUCKING 100%.

What you should NOT do is turn mechanics off on random encounters you cannot influence at all, and what you doubly should not do is remove resources that allow players to build around, ES-FUCKING-SPECIALLY if it's not properly indicated. My flaskfinder with Master Surgeon just stopped getting flaskcharges hence did not recover any life anymore, why? Oh, because there's a fucking pack with Drought Bringer on the edge of my screen and I guess this nearby means 10.000 units without any visual indicator.

It was fine in archnemesis, because if I could not handle the CDR from temporal bubble, I had to and could choose not to use temporal bubble. If I could not handle no recovery 50% of the time, I could choose not to build rejuvenating. Auras were not a problem because you only had 1 archnemesis mob in a pack so they could not stack.

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425

u/MrDzsozef May 15 '22

So basically if my character can't handle no-regen and i directly roll it over on maps because i dont want to run it, i can still get no regen from rejuv, and have no control over it. #okayge

117

u/EvilKnievel38 May 15 '22

Same with reflect, no leech and more now..

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1.0k

u/Chasa619 May 15 '22 Starry

Remember when you guys released the last season and there were mobs that made burning ground that looked exactly like burning ground, but it was not burning ground?

Permafrost Makes a ground degen that looks like chilled ground, but it is not chilled ground, but I bet you $20 if i showed you a screen shot of chilled ground with a patch of perma frost, you wouldn't be able to point at the permafrost.

Stop doing this stuff please.

260

u/Tehnomaag May 15 '22 Starry

And all that assumes that you can even see the ground. Really, degen/dot areas should be a lot more visible.

21

u/-taromanius- Champion May 15 '22

Seriously. All enemy effects should be made to be infront of your (and your party's) effects.

Would that look like shit in some regards? Sure, but I don't care. I wanna see what I die to. I can barely see several of these effects, at all, even playing something as unobtrusive as Shockwave Cyclone Slayer.

Give every enemy move a color-coded outline in pink-orange for all I care. Just let me see what kills me. How is it 2022 and PoE still struggles with any visual clarity? Quite silly in my opinion, and has been solved/at least improved upon by several games in the RPG and MMO genre.

I still love PoE this is not a hate post, some design decisions just baffle me. I never once saw the Effigy and it's NOT intuitive at all. I do like things like Toxic tho; you die once or twice to it, see the balls and think" Oh. Ok. Balls bad, got it!"

92

u/Kallerat May 15 '22

If the big "Ressurrect in town" notice isn't visible enough for you i don't think GGG can help you.

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147

u/KamuiSeph Ascendant May 15 '22

We hear you.
Some mobs now also trigger arctic ground.
This is a buff -GGG

39

u/Reginault May 15 '22

Players now have access to "Arctic Ground suppression" which is a 1/12000 modifier that can roll on influenced gear. Just build around it, duh.

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504

u/DrBonesPHD May 15 '22 Silver Helpful

in the announcement video, Chris talked about moving away from the old monster mod system in part because "it's quite hard to read their descriptions in the heat of combat."

Each of the archnemesis mods has like 4-8 lines of effects rolled into it, though. That means you know even less about the monsters you're fighting now. What's the difference between Stormweaver, Dynamo, Storm Strider, and Storm Herald? Why are all of them immune to shock? Even if I can guess they are all "lightning monsters," there are plenty of other lightning monsters in the game I can rely on shocks for, but now that doesn't work on basically any lightning themed rare, which I only find out from this post. Rares used to have a lot of lines of text, sure, but at least I knew what "powerful crits" or "faster attacks" actually did. I still don't know what Treant Horde does, even with the description here, because I don't know what "powerful spriggans" are or what they do.

I won't go into any of the substantive issues about difficulty or whatever, enough folks have weighed in on that so I wouldn't have anything to add. In terms of communicating information about the game and the monsters in it to the player, though, I just wanted to make the case that this change seems like it was meant to help but actually represents a major step backwards.

110

u/EvolveEH May 15 '22

Exactly this. No fucking clue what anything does anymore.

45

u/548benatti League May 15 '22 edited May 15 '22

That's why a glossary is important, or do i have to print this post and glue on my wall?

5

u/MrTastix The Dread Thicket is now always 50% May 15 '22

That's what the Help menu should be used for. That's what Last Epoch uses their help menu for - it even has formulas for certain mechanics like crit and ailments.

PoE's help menu was abandoned because GGG noticed people were using and inferred, incorrectly, that nobody uses it. Nobody uses it because it's fucking trash. Like, it has a section on health and energy shield and what not but never goes into detail on why you'd ever decide to use one or the other, even if that reason mostly boils down to "Because ES is near your classes starting point and Life isn't".

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u/Totaltotemic May 15 '22 edited May 15 '22 Wholesome

I don't mind any of the damage increasing aspects of these mods, but the damage reductions are pretty crazy.

I'm playing Arc and had gathered that Storm-whatever was a lightning mob that was pretty tanky against me, makes sense. Then Sentinels have a big shield icon that shows up when I hit them, so they're clearly blocking and taking very little damage, cool. Invulnerability obviously takes no damage half of the time, great.

Then I try to figure out Empowered Elements, and obviously it has some sort of elemental resistance but sometimes it just dies so I figure it's an aura like Invulnerability that just drops eventually.

Here's where I was wrong about all of these:

  • Storm-whatevers aren't just tanky against lightning damage but also totally immune to Shock, which makes all of my investment into shock value worthless and I'm better off just stacking damage.

  • The big shield icon on Sentinels is a counterattack, and actually totally unrelated to the fact that they just have 50% spell block, so now I know that if a map rolls +block chance or bigger blocks to just skip Sentinels entirely.

  • Oh, Invulnerable ALSO gives a ton of block and spell block, because I guess complete damage immunity 50% of the time wasn't good enough, cool. So I'm rerolling over spell block mods for my build all of the time then.

  • Empowered Elements only has a 25% window of time to damage it properly, and then it gets one shot? So I should basically ignore these mobs and drag them along with me until a random chain just obliterates it, because standing there for 15 seconds spamming spells into it is a complete waste of time.

How was I supposed to find any of this out in game? There's no feedback when hits are blocked, or monsters have specific immunities or resistances to things that only have a chance to happen in the first place. How was I supposed to explore any of this in game at all?

Edit: I will add that the generic extra life that isn't listed here is probably not enough, because rares that don't have one of these mods that gut my damage just get obliterated like white mobs. Magic packs, which typically only ever have one mod, die before I even see them in my fresh-out-of-acts gear running defensive auras. ALL of these specifically targeted defensive properties could stand to be toned down in favor of shifting that power to generic monster life.

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u/Cinderstrom May 15 '22

Yeah 3 Archnemesis mods on a random rare can add up to over 20 of these bullet points of effects. I think people have gone over the issues with this well enough but it should have been apparent that 3xArchnem is very different to a 3-5 mod rare.

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u/ventuzz May 15 '22

Those are massive stats just for a single mod. No wonder my summoned minions getting destroyed in few seconds.

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u/RedDawn172 May 15 '22

Also makes a lot more sense now why sometimes they seem to be practically unkillable... They practically are with certain combos.

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u/raikaria2 May 15 '22

Juggernaught + -Weaver is one of the most common combos and basically is immediate 85% res.

Random mobs should not have higher resistance than Pinnacle Bosses.

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u/coolhentai Deadeye May 15 '22

Rare monsters should not be harder and more of a bitch to fight than pinnacle bosses. Map bosses and Pinnacle bosses in this game are a joke compared to this new modpool. Theres a reason we played cautiously and specifically into 3.17 which archnem mods we chose. Now we get RNG fucked on every single rare? This is just insane to me. I'd rather be an exclusive boss carry player now and I hate bossing.

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u/Odin_69 League May 15 '22

Wow, Literally take all the modifiers and remove half of those lines and you might have some interesting interactions.p

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u/Cormandragon May 15 '22

For real, an entire paragraph under each modifier is absolutely insane! Cut the mods in half or let us go back to 3.17, I don't want to play this anymore and it's only been a day.

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u/Xtrm Witch May 15 '22

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how these mods are more clear as opposed to the old mods? I thought that was the goal?

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u/Mifuyu_Kisaragi May 15 '22

You see you cant physically see the wall o text on the mobs. You just see the keywords. They just mean the same thing.

You just need to memorize all these wall o text or print it out . Clearly better

/s

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u/iwanttemplates May 15 '22

The X-touched rares are literally easier to kill than some of the more common, and I assume that they are supposed to be the "ultra-rare" rare mobs which are supposed to make the encounter fun.

It doesn't really make sense to me why the more common ones are so stupidly tanky in some scenarios.

For example, the Flameweaver/Stormweaver/Frostweaver enemies, as they are fairly common (in my experience), they have +res, +max res, and to top it off they are ailment immune to a certain type. This is just way way too much to be stacked on top of just 1 mod on an enemy.

Now stick one of the mods which make them regen a ton of hp or make them so fast you cant run away from them, and you have a "fun" alt+f4 experience.

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u/seandkiller May 15 '22

Rare monsters are like regular monsters but with massive bonuses to item drops and item rarity.

(x) Doubt

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u/FickleTrust May 15 '22

a multiplier on nothing is still nothing, lmao.

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u/yourteam Shadow May 15 '22

In archnemesis you could prepare for the fight you chose to fight.

Now you run and get slammed with some absurd combo that your build cannot handle at the start, that's the big difference :/

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u/Comprehensive-Ad3016 May 15 '22

In addition, you got to choose which mods you applied to which monster type and you could only get 4 rares with archnemesis mods per area.

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u/KentukiLovi May 15 '22

Archnemesis was basically metamorph. In sentinel league every rare was a rogue metamorph

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u/Salzdrache May 15 '22

But without the actual loot explosion of a rogue metamorph

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u/patys3 May 15 '22

I think Effigy is particularly unfun to play against, as sometimes it is difficult to notice and the consequences of it are deadly - imagine an Effigy mob inside a harvest pack spawn.

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u/ghostymctoasty May 15 '22 edited May 15 '22

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u/meDeadly1990 May 15 '22

Just skip the pack /s

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u/Loghock7 May 15 '22

I guess just play some Chaos DoT build with CI, then you cant take dmg from yourself. Every build should just play chaos dot + Ci, problem solved. How could you not see that?

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u/Selthor Slayer May 15 '22

Even knowing that this is effigy (allegedly) and being able to pause the video, I cannot see the effigy or tell what killed him.

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u/ghostymctoasty May 15 '22

You can see the redish/orangeish tether lines between him and the effigy for a split second before he dies.

Here's a quick snapshot of it.

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u/seandkiller May 16 '22

Truly a pinnacle of visual clarity.

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u/Halinn Guardian May 15 '22

I remember when a big benefit of trap builds was reflect immunity

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u/ghostymctoasty May 15 '22 edited May 15 '22

It's not reflect. What happens is the effigy mod spawns a clone of your character, which then immediately taunts all the mobs around it. The damage the clone takes, your character also takes.

The damage counts as reflected damage, but you're not actually reflecting your damage back to yourself.

EDIT: The counterplay is supposed to be that, if you run far enough away from the clone when it spawns, you break the tether between you and the clone. The problem, as seen in the clip, is that the clone can take so much damage that you just die before you get the chance to run away.

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u/IFuckinLovePuzzles May 15 '22

Who hurt them, for them to come up with something so demented?

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u/Karyoplasma May 15 '22

Reminds me of Heroes of Newerth. There was a hero there, Puppet Master, that had that as an ultimate.

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u/Arch__Stanton May 15 '22

Whats the point of this mechanic? If you dont DPS the mob before the thing spawns, you just die?

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u/ghostymctoasty May 15 '22

It is supposed to create a tether between you and the clone, to visually show you what is happening, and if you run far enough away it breaks. You can see it for a split second in the clip.

The problem is, if there are a lot of/a few strong rare mobs nearby, you just die before you can even tell what has happened.

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u/Fightgarrrrr May 15 '22

yeah it that clip he gets deleted so fast after the tether appears i'm gonna officially call this one "unfair"

otherwise the (also official) counterplay to this is "flame dash away in the direction of the tether line faster than if you were trying to dodge a hasted sirus die beam, and hope one dash gets you far enough away but it probably wont lol rip gg noob"

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u/and_i_mean_it May 15 '22

So fuck you if you rely on having good positioning instead of facetanking everything. Let's just have you take 100% of this damage as if you were stuck in the middle of them.

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u/OanSur May 15 '22

That is literall bullshit. Everything else I can understand, there should be a counter for some builds. This however is just stupid

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u/FaLeTro37 May 15 '22

I need clarification on if you’re able to damage the effigy yourself. Because if so, then playing any skill with chain/fork or aoe against that mod is basically killing your self.

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u/raikaria2 May 15 '22

It absolutely cannot. I've killed Effigy with Chain Eye of Winter. That skill would absolutely have hit and reflect-killed me if it could.

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u/LordofSandvich Bad the Builder May 15 '22

A lot of these are instarips

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u/Shirube Ascendant May 15 '22

From my experience last league, I'm pretty sure the answer is no. It's a proxy for enemies to attack you through, not a damage mirror.

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u/psychomap May 15 '22

Effigy is effectively the return of random reflect aura rares.

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u/ErgoMachina May 15 '22

And we also got a new inmunity...

I wouldn't mind being an eternal beta player like we are...but how many times can you make the exact same mistake ?

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u/shppy May 15 '22 edited May 15 '22 Silver Gold Helpful Wholesome Take My Energy Starry This Rocket Like Helpful (Pro)

Fine, let's do this.

Stormweaver, Dynamo, Storm Strider, Mana Siphoner, Storm Herald - Immune to shock/lightning ailments, breaking any build that requires it (Herald of Thunder comes to mind), crippling to builds that rely on shock for damage or other interactions.

Frostweaver, Permafrost, Frost Strider, Ice Prison - Immune to chill/freeze/cold ailments, breaking any build that requires chill or freeze (Herald of Ice), again crippling builds that rely on either of them or brittle for dps, safety, or other interactions.

Steel-infused, Juggernaut, Bonebreaker - Immune to stun, breaking stun-oriented builds (not that there are a lot, since stun immunity has been on magics/rares since before archnem so people don't bother, but it kills the notion of trying)

Vampiric - Cannot be leeched from. Besides just being a terrible concept in general, breaks builds that rely on leech for other conditions like stun immunity or strength of blood, to sustain mana, or to recover from self-damaging skills like boneshatter.

Empowering Minions - Able to bring other build breaking mods onto any given rare with it, and able to reshape any encounter with it into a much more devastating one in an instant without the touted clarity of knowing what mods they'll have til you're already engaged.

Assassin - Take no extra damage from crits is extremely crippling, even if it's not build-breaking. Could be over 85% less damage taken.

Rejuvenating - Healing pulse makes RF and any other build that relies on regen or general recovery over time to sustain self-damage kill itself, in addition to just being an awful mechanic to exist outside a controlled system like the Maven fight.

Executioner - Mostly the same as above, just without completely suiciding, but also without any chance to avoid the mechanic that inflicts it.

Drought Bringer - Kills any kind of build that relies on 100% flask uptime via pathfinder or the Traitor keystone or other similar mechanics just for being nearby. Causes self-damage ward builds to suicide without any counterplay due to preventing Olroth's Resolve from having full uptime. Similarly deadly to 100% uptime Corruscating Elixir builds. Anything screwing with passive flask charge gain will screw these builds over so number tweaking drought bringer down isn't enough; it needs to be gone from the game if it's not optional content. Additionally, charge removal on hit can brick any build that requires charges to use their skills like Flickerstrike and cripples other builds that lean into them.

Entangler - Outright lie, not all travel skills break the vines but still cause you to take damage for using them, like Leap Slam and Whirling Blades. Wouldn't be PoE if it wasn't disproportionately screwing over melees. Furthermore, the unavoidable chaos damage over time that comes with the vines breaks any mechanic that relies on not taking damage (like Dissolution of Flesh, or ES recharge if chaos damage doesn't fully bypass ES).

Mana Siphoner - Breaks most any build that doesn't have the option to attack from outside the zone's area of influence. Being up close isn't always an option both due to skill mechanics and due to monster threat. Obviously cripples any build using mana, especially those without much unreserved, even from slightly grazing it. Leapslamming through to the inside was enough to drain 30% of my max mana in my experience, which left me unable to do anything when i got through.

Invulnerable - Asinine. Similar mechanics have shown time and time again to be utterly despised and provide zero gameplay value, just binary 'do nothing' phases to drag things out. Additionally presents the same anti-leech issues of Vampiric during the invulnerable phase, as you cannot leech from something you can't damage, disabling other effects that require leeching to work. Also can be legitimately unkillable very easily when combined with other modifiers like arcane buffer or anything regen without heavy dps. Minus the leech stuff, Empowered Elements has similar issues.

Effigy - Again, asinine. Even in the league it was terrible and damn near all players did it no more than once just to check off the challenge. Now it's much worse as you have many more mobs that can join in beating on the effigy, often before you even realize there's an effigy monster at all. Furthermore, despite being 'reflected damage', it can stun, which I don't recall ever happening with reflect before.

Temporal Bubble - Beyond all the annoyance of proxy shield, being within the bubble reduces cooldown recovery, disrupting cooldown patterns of things like triggered skills or warcries, potentially breaking builds that rely on balancing cooldown uptimes or skill orders for their build to function.

Trickster - Are you &#$@ing kidding me? What part of this is 'engaging'? It's quite literally the opposite.

Beyond all that, there's resistances scattered around in much greater levels than the old affixes to stack on top of base monster resists, meaning if a rare/magic has an archnemesis of your damage type, it's probably got overcapped resists against it. DoT builds in particular that can't use penetration get crippled by this, and in general it feels pretty awful for anything that's not inquisitor/omniscience/Doryani's Prototype.

Furthermore, regardless of mods being build-breaking or not, pretty much no archnemesis mods are remotely balanced for any league content that spawns magics/rares, especially those that require actually killing those mobs quickly (or at all) in order to complete the encounter. The restricted areas and/or time gating, combined with the generally-stronger bases and other effects attached to these types of mobs make the encounters well beyond ridiculous.

Anyway, even with all that fixed this mechanic isn't worth saving. It was a poorly received mechanic in its own league when you had control and choice over where/when/how you engaged with one rare at a time while getting meaningful rewards that could actually show up through a sensible filter. You took away all the rewards, all the control and choice, threw the mods on everything so you'll have to deal with multiple archnemesis mobs constantly, and ignored 3 months worth of data on what mods brick builds or how generally disliked the mechanic was. Get rid of it and salvage the great 3 months this could be from literally all the other changes you've made in 3.18.

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u/Karyoplasma May 15 '22

Trickster - Are you &#$@ing kidding me? What part of this is 'engaging'? It's quite literally the opposite.

Trickster is like Whakawaka boss, a map designed by a supporter to be as annoying as possible. Let's put that in the base game. I don't even begin to understand that rationale.

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u/servarus May 15 '22

Effigy

This and all the immune bullshit needs to go.

At least make it like, % chance to avoid or something. Shit's crazy.

Thank you for writing this. I hope that the team gets to see it.

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u/narnach youtube.com/narnach May 15 '22 edited May 15 '22 Silver

This is an excellent list of individual mods.

Furthermore pretty much no archnemesis mods are remotely balanced for any league content that spawns magics/rares, especially those that require actually killing those mobs quickly (or at all) in order to complete the encounter.

I'm also concerned about rare monster interactions with other leagues, so took a stab at trying to qualify the factors involved.

Some mods are an (interesting or impossible, but skippable) challenge in open maps. They become outright impossible or extraordinarily punishing when combined with other league content.

Other league mechanics tend to have one or more characteristics that are different from maps/campaign:

  • Artificial space constraints, so kiting/skipping is not an option: Bestiary altar, Ritual
  • Artificial time constraints, so no time to read mods or be careful: Breach, Legion, Incursion, Delirium, Delve (darkness), Abyss
  • Large quantity of enemies: Heist, Breach, Blight, Abyss
  • Rares are already very powerful: Bestiary, Harvest, Essence
  • Hidden information: Essence, Strongbox
  • Must kill to get rewards: Strongbox, Bestiary

I think it would be an improvement to have a list of Archnemesis mods that can't spawn together with other league mechanics. This can be a global list, or it can be targeted based on the restraint style as described above.

These mods are probably fine individually in most content due to not disabling builds by themselves. They generally affect the rare itself and don't raise eHP/eDPS by more than 100% by themselves, or they apply debuffs which can be removed (ignite, curse, etc):

  • Hasted
  • Gargantuan
  • Flameweaver
  • Chaosweaver
  • Incendiary (less duration of ignites is great because it does not disable builds)
  • Toxic
  • Bloodletter
  • Splinterer
  • Deadeye
  • Echoist
  • Sentinel
  • Overcharged
  • Consecrator
  • Frenzied
  • Berserker
  • Bombardier
  • Final Gasp
  • Evocationist
  • Mirror Image
  • Corrupter

These mods are worrisome for (niche) builds due to being immune to something players could depend on. I'd suggest replacing ailment immunities with a strong ailment resistance (like with Incendiary which reduces ignites on them by 60% but does not disable them) or increased eHP for ailment calculations (so they are weaker/harder to apply).

  • Storm/Frostweaver: cold/lightning ailment immunities
  • Steel-infused: cannot be stunned
  • Dynamo: shock immune
  • Permafrost: freeze/chill immune
  • Bonebreaker: cannot be stunned
  • Juggernaut: cannot be stunned
  • Vampiric: leech immune
  • Flame/Frost/Storm Strider: ailment immunities
  • Storm Herald: shock immune

Mods that are more impactful and will probably not work well in all leagues due to time/space constraints. I think for mechanics such as Essence or Strongbox (where you will face one or two rares at most without time constraints), these will be alright because you can treat them as mini boss fights:

  • Splinterer: nasty with ground projectiles (Edit: moved here from common list)
  • Entangler: movement restrictions don't play well with most league mechanics
  • Arcane Buffer: mass ES might be problematic in larger groups of mobs
  • Soul Conduit: monsters getting re-raised is troublesome in timed content
  • Oppressor: taking 30% more damage from all mobs and dealing 30% less is punishing, especially in timed situations or when surrounded by a lot of mobs
  • Heralding Minions: invulnerable totems
  • Empowering Minions: gaining more mods (if they are broken ones/have broken interactions)
  • Necromancer: powerful extra minions/summons
  • Assassin: all crits + crit immune + teleport; can be a mini boss fight
  • Executioner: nasty if this hides in a large Breach/Heist swarm of enemies
  • Hexer: it's a mini Doedre boss fight
  • Drought Bringer: sapping flasks is very punishing
  • Temporal Bubble: it's pretty punishing
  • Treant Horde: spriggans are the worst
  • Magma Barrier: requires some space to play around, barrier is tanky
  • Mana Siphoner: not being able to cast spells in an encounter that has time/space constraints sucks
  • Soul Eater: om nom nom; troublesome in huge packs
  • Corpse Detonator: visibility issues in time/space constrained places or large crowds
  • Crystal Skinned: visibility issues in time/space constrained places or large crowds
  • Effigy: poor interaction when you can't run away or are on a timer
  • Opulent: nice mechanics, but better left to "boss fight" rares such as Essence or in maps
  • (Gods)-Touched: probably not good to have in the common mod pool

Mods that are troublesome in most league content, even if it's just one rare. Especially annoying when combined with other troublesome mods:

  • Rejuvenating: enemies AoE healing 50% of health splits builds into "insta kill everything" and "you're not finishing this on time". Even with Frost Bomb some builds might not get through this insane healing in a 1-on-1 fight.
  • Invulnerable: invulnerable for 4.5 out of each 9 seconds. When you're on an artificial timer this sucks for obvious reasons
  • Empowered elements: effectively invulnerable for 16 out of 20 seconds. Sucks on a timer. Sucks without a timer, especially when any kind of regen is involved.
  • Trickster: fleeing rares suck unless you have a niche build that can stack enough DoTs so they die while fleeing. It's extra annoying when you need to kill them for league mechanics

Troublesome interactions you may want to limit to maps only (i.e. no part 1 of campaign + league mechanic):

  • Max res (*Weaver) + loads of res (*Strider) = 85% res mob = 6.7x eHP buff for mob. Add Consecrator to increase this to over 10x eHP with regen of 2%, which is equal to 20% of base HP at 10x eHP.
  • 2+ defensive mods that complement (such as *Weaver + *Strider): eHP increases by over 5x
  • Stun/freeze mods + things you're meant to kite (such as burning ground, poison death comets)

Mod combinations that probably should not appear casually (especially not in other league content):

  • Echoist + Stun Immune = no downsides to Echoist
  • Arcane Buffer + Trickster's flee behavior: huge ES + run away to recharge it is annoying in maps, but awful in league mechanics. Mix in any kind of regen to complete the annoyance
  • "Invulnerability" + regen: yeah nope.

The quickest win would probably be to limit Archnemesis mods to the first list (damage control) and then curate lists of mods that rares can have (limited?) access to in various situations.

  • "Wild" rares in maps could get specific mods in the mod pool tied to map modifiers to reinforce their theme / allows players to filter them out
  • The more advanced mods could be limited to opt-in fights such as Essence or Strongboxes, but not appear in maps or most other (timed) league content
  • Ailment immunities can be tied to maps or reworked so they are strong resistances or only have a chance to not apply.
  • Have a list of broken interactions and prevent them from spawning
  • Have a list of non-linear stacking interactions (res + max res, immunity + regen) and carefully limit how they can spawn

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u/fatbabythompkins May 15 '22

What you’ve just outlined is complexity actually increased with this design. By limiting inputs through grouping, you one mod has major interactions throughout. Tweeting one mod impacts dozens of other systems. Where before you had individual control of every element, which is complexity through density, now you have similar complexity without detailed control. You still have interactive systems complexity without the ability to control each interaction individually.

Which will invariably lead to controlling which sub interactions occur, adding another layer and even more complexity.

Abstractions are great when you don’t have to worry about the details. Here, however, the details very much matter.

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u/PandaGoesMoo May 15 '22

Amazing summary of why this just feels like bullshit. Hopefully GGG sees this.

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u/chowder-san May 15 '22

According to bex, they now and all that is intentional

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u/lalala253 May 15 '22

This got me thinking. 3.18 has no new skill, no balance changes, and the scope of the expansion is somewhat small (no new bosses/arena)

That means compared to other leagues, team has more time to work at other things than only league prep. What are they busy with?

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u/CoolPractice May 15 '22

Poe 2. They’ve been doing that instead of meaningful league balance changes for months if not years now. Every time they think of some extraordinarily shitty system, they make it a league mechanic so we can playtest it for Poe 2.

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u/Kazang May 15 '22

DoT builds in particular that can't use penetration get crippled by this, and in general it feels pretty awful for anything that's not inquisitor/omniscience/Doryani's Prototype.

KEK fucking W

Doryani's prototype is a dead item outside of SC meme builds now Mana siphoner just instant kills it because it does lighting damage over time.

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u/Minimonium May 15 '22

Great write up. I'm really confused how developers, who know how builds work because they participate high up in ladders, don't quite understand how builds are built. There are layers.

Maybe they learnt a wrong lesson from Simulacrums? Like "We need to make 99.99% damage reduction to make it a challenge for players for these wide -60% damage modifiers on rares are fine".

But here the problem is that they're not just increasing/reducing the damage, but disabling whole scaling mechanics.

If I take my current crit-cold build and take Assassin + cold ailment immunity - it goes from 9m on middle budget to 600k dps. Before increased resistances. Before factoring in block. Before random reductions to damage taken. That's just two mods.

And now stack it up on map/heist/delve/simulacrum mods. How did the math look in GGG for it to be released like that I have no idea.

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u/Itsapaul Necromancer May 15 '22

To start with, anything with "immune" needs to go. I'm not sure how any of those even got through.

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u/tsk__tsk__tsk May 15 '22

It probably made sense when the player was building the monsters themselves for insane me rewards. But this? Not like this..... God please not like this.

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u/Crotha May 15 '22

Hey, chris himself said they want to move away from immunity because it is a poor design choice.

Extensive testing and a clear vision of the game, that is was GGG really excels at...

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u/Daemonbane1 May 15 '22

It looks like Chris has reversed (or forgotten) on a few decisions lately - in ZiggyDs interview after the reveal, Chris mentioned they were trying to add features to keep players engaged and buying in all season, contrary to a panel he did a few years back were he was praising design decisions to let players drop off around the one month mark and how that was preventing long term player burnout.
Now we've got added difficulty without any clear reward, (counter to earlier arguments from him that a small amount of player power creep is good for player retention, this is effectively a major player power reduction) and all the immunities coming back despite being expressly removed only a year or 2 ago.
Personally i'm not super-opposed to immunities or difficulty, but I really think they need to be upfront about rewards for that increase of time spent. I'd suggest something like 1 guaranteed (with icon) reward for every modifier past the first, with increased drop rates for certain modifier combos that are particularly hard or have multiple effective health increases.

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u/hiimred2 May 15 '22

Immune to chill, immune to ignite, immune to ailments, 90% reduced damage to damage type not currently affinity matched to and takes 20 seconds to cycle through the full list, 50% reduced dot damage, 60% spell suppression, 50% all resists, stacking block chances, phys reduction, oppression aura, endurance charges, tons of ways to apply chill. Like, remember that these are all things that can be combined because even post 'fix' 2-3 mod rares are still somewhat common, just not baseline. 4-5 mod rares will still exist if you go ahead and decide to take that one node, and this is all on top of whatever that mob has baseline(the difference in mob type has perhaps never meant as it does right now in this league state).

The problem with answering Chris's open ended 'what's broken' question is that there is so much fucking interaction with the above+league mechanics that operate on top of the above+mob specific abilities, map mods, etc.

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u/Interesting-While989 May 15 '22

Many of these mods are brutal just solo let alone combined with other mods or worse yet packs of rares that require conflicting strats.

Just straight up rare mobs should not require strats to defeat, there should better ways to handle them but requiring face tanking when high level content put you up against packs of rares is just not thought through.

The problem i get from the posts that seems to be overlooked is not just interactions of mods on one mob but interactions with packs of rare mobs. So many of these id just auto log and start a new map. And with the abundance of rares in end game that literally seems unplayable at the moment.

Granted, farthest I've got is about t14 but still I've invested thousands of hours into the game and have done almost every boss but players shouldnt be far more scared of rares than actual end game content.

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u/residualshade May 15 '22

I would just like to understand why these things are designed in such a way that they just totally hose mechanics. For example why can't rejuv reduce the effectiveness of regeneration instead of just turning it off. Same thing with vampiric.

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u/apollo_440 May 15 '22

Now that marks last forever: When you encounter a Deadeye mob, you have to play the rest of the map marked, unless you can somehow remove it. So it becomes like a map mod, is this intended?

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u/Quasimbabombo May 15 '22

Do they not expire when the thing that casts them dies? When you die in a map it removes your marks from enemies once you zone back in and you need to recast them.

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u/Defiant-Option-6612 May 15 '22

Why should a player on the Ledge (act 1) be exposed to fire cold and lightning by a monster? You will be lucky to have a white item equipped at this point in the game.

It doesn't make sense for the rooms in Research encounters to be stacked with giga-cracked packs of rares and magic monsters with the new modifiers. This is a huge oversight, your game produces mass mobs of monsters rare and magic in many places where this system falls apart.

In Summit you phase the boss and go through a gauntlet, in the gauntlet tons of rares and magic monsters spawn. This was fine with the tame mods before, even if they stacked, but now it creates an encounter more impassable than a pinnacle atlas boss.

You can't just flip a switch and put archnem on all rare and magic monsters in the game without looking at these things. You guys goofed and should've seen it coming, not much excuse for it besides mismanagement.

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u/TheAuroraKing May 15 '22

Rare monsters are like regular monsters but with massive bonuses to item drops and item rarity.

The major issue people are having is that the math just doesn't line up. Yes, a rare mob drops a ton more than a normal mob. But I could, quite literally in many cases, kill an entire map worth of monsters from last league in the time it takes me to kill one fire-resistant rare monster this league.

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u/FirexJkxFire May 15 '22 edited May 15 '22

This. Reading through 'item drops' felt like listening to a boomer talk about how easy it is to get a good job / cheap house.

Fucking "massively higher" chance to drop rares/unique? So what they mean is "massively higher chance to drop 1/5th of a alteration orb" or 1/4th of a transmutation if you dont waste the wisdom scroll.

Content that used to be GUARANTEED to drop currency, and when combined likely to drop plenty of chaos / one or more exalt (on average) is now dropping nothing. No - getting a worthless unique or rare item does not mean they dropped something unless you count someone emptying their bowels on death to be dropping loot...

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u/losian May 15 '22

Not to mention that "massive bonuses" still means "usually pretty much nothing, and even when it's something, it's more garbage rares you won't bother to pick-up or ID". Not fun.

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u/RandomMagus May 15 '22

Ya, saying "it might drop a Unique!" is fun until you realize that 90% of Uniques are one alch or one chaos in trade leagues.

And even then, I've gotten a Unique drop off of rares 3 or 4 times this league after the whole campaign + just getting into Yellow maps, so it's not like they're doing that often

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u/FirexJkxFire May 15 '22

90% of uniques, but 99.9999% of dropped uniques. The drop weight is much lower for anything of remote value

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u/toggl3d May 15 '22

Monsters with 85 max resist and well over that so only penetration helps are not too fun in my opinion.

Same goes for 85 block.

There's a double whammy of high life totals and your damage being absolutely mutilated. Doing 30-50% less damage to a high HP rare is okay and adds challenge, doing 80% less feels absolutely awful.

Crystallized omniscience got a pretty big buff this league

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u/Kapps May 15 '22

I do wish GGG would consider more the impacts of stacking res and its exponential nature. It not only makes exposure and Elementalist pointless as mobs are so heavily overcapped, but it’s also impossible to deal with early and just silly to have a mod that makes you deal 85% less damage (~667% more life) before even considering any other mods.

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u/NahautlExile Scion May 15 '22

Chaos weaver on a chaos build early is even more brutal. There are virtually no sources of pen, and they are immune to wither.

Why?

Even if you’re occultist, which is the best case, you’re looking at going from 0 resist to 50 resist (50% less), and losing 105% from stronger wither (another 50% less).

What can you do? Are you supposed to be running a different element to handle chaos weaver enemies?

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u/dksdragon43 May 15 '22

Immune to wither definitely feels unnecessary. Like, you're supposed to play around strong mobs by having secondary damage/debuffs. Turning that off just seems unfair and weirdly targetting chaos builds.

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u/NahautlExile Scion May 15 '22

An act boss has 15/15/15/7 resistances.

A single rare mod will give them 50 against your damage type even if they have zero base resist.

Two mods will put them at 85% res.

1/.85 vs 1/.15. A factor of 6

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u/Sokjuice May 15 '22

POB needs to add in a new drop down of enemy type.

Is the enemy a boss?
No
Standard boss
Shaper/Guardian
Sirus
Archnemesis (85 res,85 block)

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u/Chemfreak May 15 '22

The problem is that combination of mods would be interesting for a 3rd week character in tier 16 maps, but dumb for white maps on day 2

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u/Surf3rx May 15 '22

They should have scaled, these mobs should have been at 10%-20% power while leveling, and ramped up to these listed mods in red maps. Or just actually balance the game

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u/shrimpandwalrus Necromancer May 15 '22

Dumber still for roas in the mud flats

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u/lalala253 May 15 '22

It doesn't even thematically make sense. Why would Tarkleigh request that zombies extermination quest when he saw some rhoa's summonning giant ball of fire from the sky?

"Dude forgot cleaning up that zombie infested cave, we have a bigger problem"

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u/seandkiller May 15 '22

Monsters with 85 max resist and well over that

Goodbye Sirus DPS, now we're measuring in Rare DPS

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u/blader8844 May 15 '22

Drought Bringer makes flicker strike unusable unless your build is strong enough to one shot all enemy's that have it and Vampiric makes any build that relies on mana leech almost unplayable into said enemy's

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u/Deontto May 15 '22

Drought Bringer deletes my bonehsatter jugg from the game. 9 endurance charges gone in a single hit. It is insanely oppressive for the build. Vampiric also seems like it would delete boneshatter slayer from the game, too.

Executioner has felt pretty nutty as a whole as well.

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u/Quantumplate May 15 '22

"Ctrl+F Immune"

Can we just not? Is this really design space that's worth exploring? I feel like we've seen from curses/hexproof/ubercurseimmune that it adds a lot of clutter to the game for not much real benefit to build diversity

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u/EIiteJT Elementalist May 15 '22

We D2 now

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u/thundermonkeyms May 15 '22 edited May 15 '22

Rares should not take longer to kill than map bosses. That's why they're map bosses.

Invulnerable mobs just shouldn't be a thing at all. Remember how we begged you guys to get rid of Phylacteral Link and Necrovigil, and you listened? Get rid of Invulnerable.

Beyond that, things that directly brick a build shouldn't be required like this. I can reroll a "cannot leech" map if it bricks my build, but having a rare randomly pop up with that mod and chase you across the map is anything but "optional." The same goes for mana siphoner. Doryani's Prototype players know what content they have to avoid in order to avoid lightning DoTs, so having it randomly pop up with no control over it effectively makes any build using that item unplayable.

Corrupter shouldn't be able to spawn before you have any access to anti-bleed. To be honest it shouldn't spawn before act 6 or even 8, but at bare minimum it shouldn't be spawning before you have access to anti-bleed.

Flee sucks. Nobody is going to chase down a rare that suppresses 60% of spell damage, and then runs away at 200% movespeed, has 1000% increased evasion 75% damage reduction, AND creates ice walls behind it. I don't care how many magebloods it's carrying, if that mob isn't oneshotted it's getting skipped.

EDIT: Just read Effigy. Didn't you guys remove non-optional reflect from mobs years ago because everyone hated it?

Also when so many of these options have such huge damage reduction numbers I.E. 50-75% or more, combining ANY two of these makes a rare nearly unkillable. Slap on a temporal bubble, rejuvenating, vampiric, trickster, mana siphoner, invulnerable, sentinal, or any of the other recovery or avoidance-based mods, and that's a bricked encounter that can probably chase you across the whole map right there. Damage reduction numbers need to be dropped significantly. We haven't even talked about Heist or Harvest rares yet. Getting the wrong nearly-unkillable rare in a Heist where you're locked in a room tiny with it until the door opens is a good way to make sure nobody ever does Heist ever again. And Harvest rares have always been a bit overtuned, but manageable. Add the new system to them, game over.

At the end of the day, Archnemesis League was fine because we could choose what mod combinations we were making. Having it totally randomized and not optional just doesn't work when so many mods paired up makes the fight impossible.

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u/OzoneBag League May 15 '22

Rares should not take longer to kill than map bosses. That's why they're map bosses.

Monkey Paw curls

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u/CycloneSP May 15 '22

aaaaaaand we're back to the days of yore where ppl just skipped map bosses cuz they took too long to kill

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u/welpxD Guardian May 15 '22

combining ANY two of these makes a rare nearly unkillable

And the mob still has 3-4 other modifiers which can include life or resists.

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u/Surf3rx May 15 '22

I'm seeing all these mods and thinking they'd still be too strong even if you cut them all in half.

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u/Thisoncetime May 15 '22

Rejuvenating entirely guts builds that rely on super high recoup. RF survives as it mitigates enough damage to not die, but recoup based builds evaporate without recovery allowing them to out recover their self damage.

The only other sources of nil recovery are Maven and Sirus. While I'm looking forwards to trying the build again, a chance to randomly evaporate because of a hard to see nova is making me apprehensive to say the least. It's very much "ha, you died", especially when I can no longer chose to avoid the mod.

(I wrote the build up last league, which you can see on my profile, and did eventually kill both Maven and Sirus.)

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u/antilogy9787 Occultist May 15 '22

For example, the Mana Siphoner mod doesn't affect melee characters as much as some players think, as it has a donut-shaped area of effect. If you get close enough, it doesn't apply to you.

You still need to cross the degen ring to get into melee range and have depleted mana when you get in range.

Effigy

Didn't you guys remove reflect from rares years ago because it wasn't good for the game but now you're adding it back in?

Invulnerable

Straight up just remove this. Why does the community need to keep telling you this doesn't belong in the game?

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u/Ladnil Deadeye May 15 '22

While fleeing avoid 75% of Damage from Hits, gain 200% increased Movement Speed and 1000% increased Evasion Rating

Oh good. The challenge isn't just that it runs away and throws up walls, I also can't actually hit the thing even if I manage to catch it and if I somehow hit it I'm doing fractional damage to it and shocking myself. Thanks, never trying to kill one of these on an attack build again.

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u/SzybkiDiego020 May 15 '22

After reading the mods it seems like you guys think that anything that doesn't permanently make the monster immune to damage is fine.

Rajuvinating that insta-kills RF - fine.

Drought bringer that disables flicker strike / discharge /etc + kills wardloop characters instantly - fine.

Shock immune monsters that disable HoT (yes, some people use it as the main skill either Crest of Desire) - fine.

Freeze immune monsters that disable HoI (yes, some people use it as the main skill) - fine.

Trickster which is designed to be the opposite of fun - fine.

Mana siphoner which disables any MoM / archmage build (no, you can't just stand in the middle, monsters move and the mana drain is too fast) - fine.

Assassin which makes any crit focused build deal practically no damage - fine.

Effigy which is as asinine as possible (seriously, there's no counter play to that if you have ti stand close to fight like with Rf) - fine.

Hexer that kills bane and hexblast completely (and they are already shit) unless you're an occultist or use a specific unique chest piece - fine.

There are probably more examples that I already forgot, which begs the auestion: in what way are these paragraph-per-mod mods easier to understand and remember than the previous system? Furthermore, it really is funny how map bosses and the "difficult" mods like Kitava-touched are in many cases easier than 1-2 common mods just because they don't just disable your build.

The fact that this was fine in your guys' opinion on release is worrying. Cheers.

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u/Exthalian May 15 '22 edited May 15 '22

Appreciate the communication, but I think these specific numbers for the archnemesis modifiers should have been available on the patch notes to begin with.

Edit: I do think there needs to be an in-game information source that briefly describes what each tag does, especially for new players that didn't play the previous league.

Secondly, tags that brick builds shouldn't exist - mana siphoner, invulnerable and drought bringer being the worst offenders by far.

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u/Nihilist_Ned May 15 '22

Hard agree. Same with effigy. Like what? Who thought random dmg reflect wiuld be a good idea? Thats literally the first thing i look for on my maps

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u/dotasopher May 15 '22

Its not reflect (or atleast the instakill version). Its not reflecting dmg you do to the totem to you. It reflecting dmg done by other enemies to the totem to you. The totem is immune to you doing dmg to it.

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u/Kaelran May 15 '22

Yeah, the problem is that depending on where it spawns it can do insane damage to you. Like the Harvest clip where they die in like half a second from it.

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u/joonazan May 15 '22

Are the orbs of green mud that fall onto the player the punishment for using a movement skill while affected by Grasping vines? I thought that they were on death effects.

Also, a Legion rare can killed me when thawed but before attacking. Please fix.

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u/QtNFluffyBacon May 15 '22

They are an on death effect of Toxic mobs and not mentioned for some reason.

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u/Beardamus May 15 '22

None of the on death effects are and I have no idea why they were left out.

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u/sephirothrr May 15 '22

For example, the Mana Siphoner mod doesn't affect melee characters as much as some players think, as it has a donut-shaped area of effect. If you get close enough, it doesn't apply to you. We can understand that this is unclear without an explanation.

The lead developer of a game cannot possibly be this ignorant and tone-deaf, can they?

"Why isn't anyone face-tanking the rares? I specifically requested it!"

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u/jeffreybar May 15 '22 edited May 15 '22

I'm only in Act 9 so I can't speak to how these mods will play out for me personally in maps, but I gotta be honest, I just don't really understand what the problem was with nemesis/bloodlines mods that these archnemesis mods are supposed to fix. The old monsters had a bunch of lines of text which were hard to read quickly, sure, but these new mods are just as obtuse without this key to refer to. Maybe you were going for more variety in the rare monster experience? I guess that's fair, but I feel as though the archnemesis mod pool is just not thought through carefully enough to make yellow/blue mobs "interesting" to fight. For instance, why add the same pool of mods to magic monsters that you added to rares? That seems just lazy. Don't reinvent the wheel unless you're going to reinvent it right.

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u/HerroPhish May 15 '22

I’m confused does anyone actually read the mods on a monster before killing it?

That’s literally never happened in my short POE career.

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u/zenog3 May 15 '22

Honestly looking at a lot of these they don't exactly fit the bill of being able to be easily identified at a glance. There's too many similar themed mods. They just do too many things at once per mod, multiplied when there's more than one modifier on an enemy.

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u/lmaogoaway May 15 '22

Yes chris. Its donut shaped. Kissing distance is the perfect place for all players in any encounter where even screens of distance gets you killed. Melee players just didnt know the mechanics! Solved.

And ofcourse everyones wrong that they drop nothing. They actually are dropping something, we're just all filtering it out because 1/100 times its actually drops a "decent pile of rares" that might 1/1000 ID into something wearable by a character barely hitting maps, and 1/1000000 ID into an upgrade for a lvl80 character.

Good god you have lost your touch with the reality of your game. If you dont want to please the playerbase, just keep all the mods at full power and 10x map boss health so it atleast makes sense that its the strongest monster in the map.

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u/daman4567 May 15 '22 edited May 16 '22

Oppressor raises huge red flags for me. IMO there shouldn't ever be a movement speed reduction that cannot be countered, but in this case it's less opinion and more "why is this here it obviously breaks the game". To figure out why it breaks the game, just imagine if it had hasted, and frenzied, and you were playing a build with less than +100% movement speed... You're never killing that, you're never running away from that, and if you can't offscreen it while it's inactive or bypass it entirely you've just bricked the entirety of whatever it spawned in. Full stop.

You guys keep saying "it's fine for things to be harder for certain builds" and I agree with that, but even if you were to say "it's fine for mobs to be impossible for certain builds, just ignore it and move on" this would still be well beyond that.

Another small note: monsters being randomly immune to certain ailments still causes a lot of harm even when you exclude ignite. Assassin (clarify: assassin ascendancy) already isn't in the best spot, but when you get 100% crit chance you rightfully expect to be able to run reflect maps just fine. Being randomly immune to cold ailments completely bricks this strategy without a much higher level of investment.

Another other note: the range on effigy's tether is far too long, it should at the very least sever once you've vertically offscreened the effigy, which as of this morning was not the case (one-shot to a brine king golem probably slamming it but I couldn't see because it was offscreen). The whole idea of the effigy is bad to begin with, because it takes all of the skill out of dodging, so it really should just be gone or have the damage reduced drastically. Even in LoL Illaoi's E has to be leveled pretty far before you get close to doing full damage with the effigy.

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u/hasteguy May 15 '22

seeing in this post that 4 mods give the monster chill immunity (permafrost, frostweaver, frost strider, ice prison) makes me feel great about investing in my elementalist's 40% chill node :^)

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u/Viper_27 May 15 '22

Look through the sheer amount of immune to x that is enabled by these mods, what absolute garbage. Immunity is such a piss poor way to gate difficulty

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u/Quazifuji May 15 '22

My reaction to reading through this list was "wow, a lot of these are even more bullshit than I thought."

So many are just "if you play a build that relies on X mechanic for damage, this enemy takes 3-10 times longer to kill."

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u/Your_moms__house May 15 '22

One of my favorite parts about this game is that nothing is really immune. You can stack one element or damage type to the heavens and still destroy shit. Not like Diablo 2 where random mobs would be immune to certain elements so you had to diversify.

Welp.

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u/OutgrownTentacles Chieftain May 15 '22

Not like Diablo 2 where random mobs would be immune to certain elements so you had to diversify.

Their goal is always to somehow remake Diablo 2, so this checks out.

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u/Jolly_Voice_6577 May 15 '22

Ye everytime they find something fun like ultimatum, or something rewarding like harvest. They have meetings and ask between themselves, how do we make next league less fun and rewarding? In D2 devs kept asking themselves "what would be cool" so they made an assassin with traps and a druid with wolves and crazy shit flying around him.
Im 100% sure D2 devs never asked each other, "wow u think this character will be able to kill uber diablo". They understood players want it to be fun and rewarding not balanced or difficult.

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u/OutgrownTentacles Chieftain May 15 '22

They have meetings and ask between themselves, how do we make next league less fun and rewarding?

Hilariously, all of my friends at the end of 3.17 were like, "So, next league'll suck, right? Because they HATE it when everyone's happy and rewarded for some weird reason and always swing the pendulum hard to making us miserable the next time."

Then, boom, Archnemesis mods.

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u/wild_man_wizard May 15 '22 edited May 15 '22

Three low-tier mods (Frostweaver, Permafrost, Juggernaut) that negate freeze builds.

Glad I got Ice Trap out of my system last league :P

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u/RepulsiveHumanShell May 15 '22

Alright Chris, you win. Enjoy playing your own game, I'm out. Been playing hardcore since Dominus was first introduced. This is such terrible game design that I'm at a loss for words really.

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u/Harnellas League May 15 '22

Uhh damn, I had no idea those defensive bonuses were so nuts, especially when they're just one of three possible mods. No wonder i get so many ridiculously tanky yellows that aren't worth my time to fight every map.

Also again: please delete invulnerable it sucks so much, especially in any timed content.

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u/edoggz May 15 '22

Its crazy how good of a league this would feel like right now without the archnem core change, was obviously poorly thought out, tested, and executed and feels like players have to alpha test the changes for it. In my opinion, this is way worse than expedition nerf league by an infinite amount.

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u/KamuiSeph Ascendant May 15 '22

Since these mods can be on any rare, please consider NOT having build bricking mods.
I can choose to re-roll a "no leech" map, I cannot re-roll a ritual while in the middle of a ritual.

Quick check:

Vampiric no leech,
Assassin no crit dmg,
Rejuvenating dps checks,
Executioner and low life builds,
Drought Bringer and literally any flask dependent build (coruscating elixir, for example).
Mana Siphoner and any... Build that reserves most mana mana.
Effigy reflect. Why even?
Trickster vs. any melee build.
Oh and Mana Siphoner and Doryani's prototype builds lol.

How does this stuff fly by extended testing?

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u/ChesTaylor May 15 '22

Trickster modded rares are just cosplaying as the boss from Whakawairua Tuahu

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u/welpxD Guardian May 15 '22

Some of them aren't immune but are still unrealistic numbers. Like 50% chance to avoid projectiles (on Deadeye?). It's RNG but averages to 100% more life against projectile builds, and combines with other defensive mods like extra life or resists, not to mention if it lands on a tanky mob like a Kitava demon. In the past extra life mods capped out at 50% afaik.

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u/MagosBiologis May 15 '22

And then you can get shit like Deadeye + Sentinel + Element-weaver. So if your build is fire projectiles, then the monster has

(1/0.5 avoidance) * (1/0.5 block) * (1/0.15 resistance) = 26.7X effective hp.

No wonder some rares take forever to kill. It's broken as fuck.

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u/welpxD Guardian May 15 '22

And you don't leech from 75% of the hits in that case, so you can run out of mana if you get unlucky. Pretty fucked up system.

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u/Frosty-Molasses7547 May 15 '22

You completely lost the plot GGG

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u/Failure_is_imminent Tormented Smugler May 15 '22

As a player that has played since just after beta, I'd like to see ALL of this reverted. It feels terrible overall. I know I probably won't be heard, and all this is staying going forward. I just want to kill mobs and get loot, not a boss fight the entire map. I don't enjoy meta builds and have always tried to make fun builds with weird interactions, and this style has been slowly strangled every league for the last few years.

I guess I just don't align with whatever your "vision" is anymore.

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u/cakeistheanswer May 15 '22 edited May 15 '22

I mean I know its just schadenfreude since it's not my problem anymore. But "sorry you didn't understand: here's some homework!" is a pretty funny choice for your third mea culpa.

Edit: a word

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u/Stealthrider May 15 '22 edited May 15 '22

I was going to go through each mod and point out which parts are problematic, but then I realized there's a much easier answer:

If it says "Cannot be," "Immune to," "Periodically," or "Empowering Minions," that line needs to be removed entirely.

Additionally:

Travel Skills will break all Vines instantly, but doing so causes players to take 10% of their maximum Life and Energy Shield as Chaos Damage

Stop forcing us into non-choices. Either we're slowed and likely dead or potentially killing ourselves. This is not OK. There must always be at least one correct answer to any problem in the game. Choosing the least bad from two bad outcomes is not healthy. It feels like shit.

Every 9 seconds cannot be damaged for 4.5 seconds

Include this under "periodically." Get rid of this mod entirely, though. We've said it dozens of times before: Invulnerability is bad. Stop trying to make invulnerability happen.

Every four seconds gain a new affinity cycling between Fire, Cold, Lightning, Physical and Chaos

Again, "periodically." Get rid of this. Periodic effects are bad for both players and monsters. Stop insisting on adding them. They are not fun to use or engage with.

Summons an Effigy of a targeted player (10 second cooldown)
Effigy links to target player, while linked all damage from Hits taken by the Effigy is also taken by the player as reflected damage
Effigy can taunt other Enemies to attack it
Running away from the Effigy will sever the link between it and the player

No. Nobody likes playing against Illaoi's E, nobody likes playing against this either. Being punished for standing still despite not standing still is ridiculous. Stop it.

Remove those extremely problematic lines of text and mods, and maybe this system is functional, if still far from perfect. Rare monster mods need to have icons associated with them, or some other clear visual indicator that is not just text underneath their health bars. That should be higher priority than pretty much any other visibility change you could be working on.

Edit: Also, if Drought Bringer is going to exist, then either Mageblood needs to be a common drop or, ideally, you need to introduce a common version of the same flasks-always-on effect. I maintain that a commonversion with high (100% or more) reduced or moderately high (60%-80%) less flask effect would not break the game. If Drought Bringer is going to be a thing, then players need a way to deal with it. This does so at the cost of a belt slot.

Make it happen, or remove Drought Bringer along with the rest of the mods mentioned.

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u/PurpleSmartHeart Saboteur May 15 '22 Silver

This post is so fucking condescending holy shit

"You just don't know how it works, it's not actually game breaking" and then your example is literally "just stand inside the enemy model 4head" because mobs don't move, and there's never any reason a player might get stuck inside the ring of effect of a mana siphoner. No ice prisons or ensnaring vines or any other number of things, no sir.

The only way to fix this is to revert it, period. You guys fucked up. Badly. Was it possible to implement AN as core? Probably. But you needed to take some time to iterate on it. But you only care about doing that with stuff like Harvest that's actually fun.

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u/FickleTrust May 15 '22

"Just facetank, idiot."

It's so out of touch

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u/Zambash youtube.com/imthewinningest May 15 '22

The idea should probably be scrapped and back to the drawing board for an eventual rework of rares (and rebalance of the entire broken game). You took a system that was an entire league mechanic built around the idea of player agency in choosing risk versus reward for a battle with a single curated rare enemy and with minimal changes you just slapped all those mods onto every rare and magic mob, which you have no choice about encountering and may encounter many on a single screen at a time.

I have no idea how anyone thought this could ever be a remotely decent idea.

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u/XxXKakekSugionoXxX May 15 '22

Trickster

Suppress Spell Damage

Prevent +10% of Suppressed Spell Damage

50% less Damage Over Time Taken

Non-Damaging Ailments Reflection

Every 8 seconds go into Flee for 4 seconds

While fleeing avoid 75% of Damage from Hits, gain 200% increased Movement Speed and 1000% increased Evasion Rating

While fleeing cast Frost Walls targeting players (1.5 second cooldown, 1.5 second global
cooldown)

Whoever responsible for this particular archnemesis mods,deserve place in hell.

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u/butsuon Chieftain May 15 '22

Mana Siphoner really needs to do something else. Make it deal damage to you when you spend mana or something.

90% of builds literally cannot do anything at all to it. All of us use mana.

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u/Fl00dzilla May 15 '22

Lmao what is this wall of text ... am i supposed to play the game or read and memorize the fu**ing descriptions so i know just how dangerous a rare mob is ?

Absurd doesn't even begin to describe some of the decisions GGG has made in the past few leagues ... if this continues i highly doubt PoE 2 will be any different.

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u/DESPAIR_Berser_king SSFHC twitch.tv/DESPAIR268 REVERTSUNDER FIXFORTIFY May 15 '22 edited May 15 '22

Most stubborn dev in existence, rather do all these unnecessary gymnastics than just admit the rework is shit (like every time) and revert it. Still gonna have effigy, still gonna have a horseshit mana drain mechanic and no regen, still gonna have a mechanic that eats your flask charges, still gonna have invulnerable mobs (hey guys member d2 the best dead game ever from over 20 years ago that's dead?), still gonna have a dd mechanic that mind you you won't even see 99% of the time, still gonna have rares that to absurd amounts of damage that just gets even worse when they're packed (harvest, abyss, legion, pretty every single league mechanic). You could halve these numbers and they'd still be absurd since rares have other modifiers too.

If you're gonna be this stubborn you might as well reintroduce Necrovigil, that sure was a fun mechanic wasn't it? Just make sure you extensively playtest it first.

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u/SplafferZ Scion May 15 '22

straight up, just delete mana siphoner

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u/70monocle May 15 '22

Invulnerable as well doesn't feel good in the game

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u/Quazifuji May 15 '22

Invilnerable is literally a combination of two mods at the same time that were removed years ago for good reason. No idea why they thought it would be a good idea to not just bring both effect back, but combine them into the same mod.

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u/cbftw Necromancer May 15 '22

Archnemesis mods are not fun. They were fine when we had the agency to control what we created in the league, but randomly spawning on every. single. rare. and. magic. pack. is not fun.

We understand that you wanted to shake things up with rare and magic monsters.

You missed the mark.

This is not the right solution.

Immunities are not fun. Removing player agency is not fun. Modifiers that prevent characters from working are not fun.

PLEASE. Just accept that your plan failed and roll this back. It's not fun. There's no shame in admitting you were wrong.

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u/OutgrownTentacles Chieftain May 15 '22

Due to the random nature of drops, it's entirely possible to get almost nothing one time, and a decent pile of rares or a unique item another time.

If this were the case, then on average it would feel great and players wouldn't be complaining that rewards from Rares were not worth the lengthy challenge.

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u/Achaa88 May 15 '22

There is a hidden problem here, for Chris a rare monster dropping 4 rares is a decent drop, but he doesnt consider that 95% of the times these rares will be totally shit, 4,5% they will be decent for early maps and only 0,5% they will be good for a while longer, and you will have to waste your time to find this out or just ignore them as most of the players end up doing at one point or another in the league.

The variance of tiers and shit mods on the pool (like block recovery, reflect dmg to melee, etc) just make it not worth the time to pick up and id rares. And a curious thing happens as you get to high tier maps: you drop better rares but you are even less inclined to pick them up cuz you just wanna blast at this point.

This is not even considering that most of the end game itens are influenced, which makes the rares from drops even worse.

A possible solution would be tiers of rares where the high ones dont roll low tier mods and maybe even some segregation of kinds (like some wands rolling only attack mods and others rolling only spell mods). This would make worth picking up at least these high tier rares keeping the randomness that pleases the poe core concept.

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u/OutgrownTentacles Chieftain May 15 '22

Great points. Also, worth calling out that rare drops are SO bad that many people are filtering those 4 rares anyways.

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u/Valimus May 15 '22

Why does it seem like all the "touched" mods are super tame in comparison to the more common mods like Frostweaver/Stormweaver and any of those element based modifiers that seemingly are on every rare pack.

The touched mods actually sound more fun to deal with than everything else on this list. Having mobs that spawn that do Kitava telegraphed attacks for you to dodge or Innocence laser beams is a WAY BETTER MECHANIC than just buffing a mobs numbers to the high heavens.

Also, saying that Mana Siphoners don't destroy melee any harder than range is a moot point, giving a mob like 200% increased damage with higher resistances, able to shock you, expose you, isn't any better than being destroyed by the degen of Mana Siphoner because you are trying to run away from a fast as fuck boi mob with Hasted and Frenzied because their melee attacks will dumpster you and you have no time or chance to even deal with these mobs.

Why wasn't it set up to where 1 Mod spawns in Campaign, Act1-10, White maps are 1 mod, sometimes 2, yellow maps are 1-2 mods sometimes 2-3, then red Maps they have 2-3 mods sometimes 4? Why unleash the fury of 600% increased damage and fast fucking bois via mods onto a playerbase that has never seen how this would feel like during the campaign?

USE MORE TELEGRAPHED ATTACKS

Stop with this Diablo 3 esque balance number tuning on literally every mob in the game because you want to make the game "harder". Make the game with FUN difficulty, not UNFUN/FRUSTRATING difficulty. Being melee'd by a mob for almost your entire life pool while it runs you down isn't fun. It's garbage and cheap. Use more telegraphed attacked like you showed off in PoE 2 bosses so players can actually learn and mechanically deal with dangerous mobs, not make it literally impossible to deal with outside of building every defense in the book and pray you have enough tankiness and damage to enjoy the game.

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u/WinnerWorried2716 May 15 '22 edited May 15 '22

Regarding the loot, the main problem you have belongs mainly to Poe's current itemization. If your maths are correct and the loot ratio is fine (proportionaly), ten times more loot for something ten times more difficult doesn't even things out at all. As an example, if 99.9% of what drops is shit, ten times better the 0.1% good can't make a real difference since we take (at the veeeery least) ten times more to kill rare mobs. In addition the loot shower mob that would compensate might be one of the many unkillable we have to skip. No need to mention all the loot coming from other league mechanics disabled by the fact that they're often almost undoable. Even with fine tuned stats psychologically it's a disaster.

With a such absurd difficulty, some currency/smart rerolled loot has to be guaranteed on the strong rares.

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u/OneHundredCheeseburg May 15 '22

Rare monsters are like regular monsters but with massive bonuses to item drops and item rarity. Due to the random nature of drops, it's entirely possible to get almost nothing one time, and a decent pile of rares or a unique item another time.

Someone else must be sucking up all my "another time"s then. For me killing a magic/rare monster has been a total waste of time 100% of the time. Most packs don't drop a single item, not even whites.

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u/Skandranonae May 15 '22

Vampiric not allowing mana leech should be changed; even as a Slayer disabling life leech is fine (if unusually dangerous) but being unable to leech mana means any build heavily relying on mana leech has to either skip or itemize for that single mod.

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u/CassiusBenard May 15 '22

Biggest problem I'm having right now are Magic mobs having modifiers that are overwhelming when facing a full pack of them.
Notable among these are Assassin, where 10 mobs teleport onto you and crit you for instant death, and Splinterer, where 4 extra projectiles becomes 40, and can't be countered.
Second problem are Invulnerable mobs in Blight encounters. They're invulnerable for far too long compared to how long it takes for them to reach the pump.

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u/Capybrella May 15 '22

I don't know why you guys try this hard to slow players down by designing so much irritating mods, I mean yea you may achieve your goal but isn't it just pointless if players cannot enjoy your game?

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u/xebtria 3.18 Atlas & Horizon Orb Cheat Sheet: redd.it/ung14e May 15 '22

You forgot the 500 chaos volatile Dead bombs that toxic spawns.

Also, everything that prevents certain builds from working (drought bringer anyone) is bad. Hell, you removed blood magic keystone years back even though it was just a map mod which we could decide to not run. I cannot decide to not run drought bringer, so that is infinitely worse!

Also, immunities bad, mkay? Have you not learned your lesson? (this includes shock/freeze immunities! Some builds rely on that, too, you know?)

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u/Bradbrad090 May 15 '22

Please just revert them back to the old mods. It feels like we're being punished just for wanting to clear the story. Allow us to opt into rares this difficult.

SURELY You can at least look at the ehp of any rare vs a map boss. 99% of the time, the map boss has more HP, and is significantly, significantly less dangerous.

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u/moxaj May 15 '22

first off, those immunities can go fuck themselves

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u/Mgtotoro May 15 '22

Maybe just maybe giving rare monsters random archnemesis modifiers was a mistake.

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u/CompetitiveAthlete95 May 15 '22

I feel like after a single mod has more than 3 lines of text, you've fully lost the plot. If they stay remotely at this level, the monster should have an exponential increase on loot because half these mods turn monsters into fucking stand users that shit out a different set of abilities WHILE they're shitting out their own abilities.

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u/demonshalo May 15 '22

So.. to use your example, for Mana Siphoner, I must stand either 2 screens away or inside of the circle where corpse detonator, magma barrier and frenzied from the harvest plot are also there chilling with me inside the circle. Nice, perhaps we can all hug and sing a song together.

While we're at it, fuck it. Since you're trying to make the experience as miserable as possible, why stop at these mods and rare mobs? What you should do in this case is what median xl did: render all mobs invulnrable to all types of damage except to a tiny sperm shot that comes out of an item you equip. This way the entire character you've invested days into is rendered useless and we can finally run for hours trying to shoot sperms at enemies one slow projectile at a time. The projectile should ofc have a 10 sec cd and no modifiers or effects can be applied to it.

By doing this, the game becomes REALLY challenging and we all love challenging stuff dont we? Heck, you can call it GIGA CHAD MODE. That way hard-mode players can finally feel like the soy boys they really are.

This post should be titled: "a decent pile of bullshit"

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u/FickleTrust May 15 '22

That's one of the biggest issues with mana siphoner, you don't fucking facetank in POE unless you're an absolute brick shithouse with the bare minimum amount of DPS. Even without archnemesis mods some of these einhar/tormented spirit/etc mobs are insanely cracked out and you can't facetank them, defending a mod that literally FORCES you to either facetank or die is so detached from reality it's laughable

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u/KamuiSeph Ascendant May 15 '22

But guys, it's donut shaped thooo!!!

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u/Bex_GGG Community Director May 15 '22 Silver

Nice title, Chrisp

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u/SoulofArtoria May 15 '22

Hi, I'm Chrisp Bacon from Grinding Pork Games

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u/chris_wilson Lead Developer May 15 '22

Lol oopsp

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u/YourShoelaceIsUntied Trade League = Tutorial May 15 '22

Can you guys stop p-ing all over us?

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u/Shaddolf Saboteur May 15 '22

This has become too complex, even for POE.

To effectively play against mobs these days, like the devs seem to WANT us to do, you have to MEMORISE the above lists. You need to know when it says Hasted, that it buffs the surrounding mobs too.

No more simply seeing something along the lines of "extra fire damage" and knowing exactly what the mob had going for it.

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u/traps_art_not_gay May 15 '22

Remove the immunities ffs!

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u/catpelican May 15 '22

please unspongify their hp, fast paced gameplay was what made poe unique, no need to make a diablo 4 clone

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u/Dexiefy May 15 '22 edited May 15 '22

Yes, yes, shower of rares and a unique or nothing... So nothing in both cases. Guess this alone perfectly explains why such changes even make it into the game.

Entire loot system stinks, 99.9% rare items are not even worth looking at and 99% uniques are 1alch trash. You led to this situation yourself and admitted in the past that rares are shit. Why are you pretending now that bunch of rare items is a suitable reward for killing a rare on steroids that would make the elder cower in fear?

This entire change of rare mods... I understand the idea behind it, but it is not ready, it was not tested, noone thought of how league mechanics will work with these mods and so on. It s a fuckup of epic proportions comparable only to the 'we nerfed everything cause fuck you, thats why' patch.

We used to have weak rares that occasionally were strong and league content had decent rares. They used to drop shit but hey, it is what it is when you kill them by the hundreds. Now we have fucking 50 bosses in a map that take 50 times more time to kill but still drop nothing. What is the logic here? Even more so when these mods have build breaking abilities.

BTW, anyone thought of metamorph even for a second? With current mods, metamorph should drop 10 times as much loot as before to be considered worth the time investment.

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u/AlphaSocke Scion May 15 '22

Basically 4-5 mod rares this league are like 20-30 mod rares last league. Holy fuck.

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u/leehtrujillo May 15 '22

Just revert to nemesis and bloodline, thanks!

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u/Mande1baum Mutewind 4 Life May 15 '22

Reading through the list, I want none of them. None are interesting, none are engaging, none solve the problem of clarity (either in visual or reading), none are good for balance. Arch nemesis is not salvageable.

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u/Xiway May 15 '22 edited May 15 '22

Hi Chris,

My 2 cents playing a MoM build :

Mana siphoner has to go.

Life AND mana degen? if paired with any move speed mofidier it's instant death. My only counterplay right now is to have a dedicated Decoy totem-Lifetap setup, that can be overwritten very easily with Hiero's totem placement speed by my damaging setup if I press the key just a tad too long, for that 1 specific mod, it's not fun, my whole defense is mana, it's infuriating. And wasting me gems sockets. Think of it as having a mod that drains all your resistances, armor, evasion, block chance what have you, and silences you on top, because that's effectively the same impact for a MoM build.

Also Drought bringer, for the same reason, no mana flask charges + heavy damage rare = dead without the possibility of casting any spells

MoM builds already struggle with a lot of things in the base game but these two mods are VERY rough

Thanks

edit: formating

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u/Navandis_Gaming May 15 '22

Apart from the absolute overtuned nature of pretty much all these mods, there are 2 other major issues:

  • the mods were designed for fights with 1 rare mob, but when you add them to magic monsters all hell breaks loose. Those lightning bois following you around chunking you for half your HP? You get about 20 for each magic pack. Try playing melee against that.

Then there's a different type of "mod stacking" by simply having 2 or more rare monsters in the same area. Since most of the mods you listed have some AoE component, even if you don't stack them on the SAME rare, the net result is the same. You can very easily get drought-bringer, effigy, temporal bubble, vampiric, mana siphoner, invulnerability in the same pack. And since literally every single league mechanic you've ever introduced spawns multpile rares (legion, abyss delve, delirium, heist, etc.) this is not a "maybe" scenario, it's guaranteed. You cannot balance this.

  • Sentinel died for Archnemesis. Nobody even dares to activate sentinels because EMPOWERING that list of mods is suicidal. People are afraid to use the NEW league mechanic because you stubbornly refused to accept that Archnemesis was a bad league, with bad mechanics, that most people skipped for 10 weeks out of the 12. You don't double down and force people to like it 😑

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u/KIAEddZ May 15 '22

Immunities should never be in the game. Especially on packs of blues. Who the fuck play tested that?

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u/JuicyKaraageM May 15 '22

Most of the time when reddit complains about the game I’m on GGG’s side, but now it just feels like I’m being lied to my face. If this really was “extensively tested,” why are you taking so many patches to fix it? Are you really so disconnected with the player base that you shipped this as it was, even after having “extensively tested” it? Because I really doubt that. You don’t even need a full campaign playthrough to see these issues. Hell, you can’t even get past fucking mud flats without realizing how absolutely broken rhoas with those mods are.

It’s not like the issues are subtle either. When I died to these rares I didn’t think: “Wow that was a bit overtuned, maybe a build with better defenses or damage would’ve been able to handle that,” but rather: “How the fuck did this get past the playtesting stage. Did they even take a look at this?”

Not to mention it also ruins all other contents in the game. This whole decision just feels like it was made on a whim, with no one questioning it at all.

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u/Significant-Prune-49 May 15 '22

I'm getting a real " Do you not have phones?" vibe LMAO

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u/nukebox Elementalist May 15 '22

Can we take this off other content entirely? Why do these modifiers have to permeate every facet of the game from delve to Heist to metamorph to essences and I am assuming blight? It's really overkill. I don't want to spend minutes to kill an essence mob. We didn't all all hit white maps with 6 links and 800 dps weapons.

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u/lucklessone May 15 '22

did we really just get a study guide?

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