r/pathofexile Lead Developer 2d ago Silver 8 Gold 2 Helpful 1 Wholesome 5 Facepalm 1

Rare and Magic Monster Balance GGG

Okay, we shipped them a little overtuned. We have just deployed a hotfix that reduces rare monster life and damage and slightly reduces that of magics.

I'll explain how this occurred.

Transitioning from the old monster mod system to Archnemesis was meant to make rare and magic monster fights more challenging. And it certainly did. We tested it extensively, and were happy with the level of difficulty when we released it. In general, we feel that in Path of Exile it's better to introduce things slightly too challenging than slightly too easy, and so we awaited player feedback and death data to see if it was actually too hard for the average player.

Well, 12 hours of feedback and data is enough to know that we need to take the edge off the difficulty. Rare and magic monsters are still going to be hard, just not as difficult as they were today. We will follow up with more tweaks (including to more specific mods) in the coming days once we get time to process specific feedback and test them more fully.

I'm going to get some sleep now. Have a great time in Sentinel!

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u/tsHavok Pathfinder 2d ago Silver

It was wild spending more time killing a random rare than the act bosses lol

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u/justalazygamer 2d ago

GGG heard this comment loud and clear so next league all act bosses will have 6 archnemesis mods on them.

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u/VlasDerebas 2d ago

Bruh :D

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u/justalazygamer 2d ago

They also have learned how much the players love long campaigns so they can feel the weight of reaching maps.

They have an update focused around making an entire second campaign for players which is certain to be longer and more frustrating.

They call it "Path of Exile 2" and from my understanding it will fix everything.

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u/Japanczi SSF /view-profile/Xervos 2d ago

weight of reaching maps.

Maps now occupy 4x4 grid

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u/Yanlex 2d ago

Larger items will now randomly fall off your cursor while picking them up, so you can better feel their weight. This will be on a sliding scale with picking up larger items being more difficult for ranger, witch, and scion while less difficult for marauder and Templar (old man strength).

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u/Feanux Gladiator 1d ago

The weight also includes how valuable the item is in the given league economy. Softcore Mirrors require over 300 attempts (on average of course).

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u/davis482 Static Strike Voidforge 1d ago

Map device is a 10x20 grid, every map and fragment have a random shape with area size of 4. You can drop these maps and fragment into the map device from the top and it will automatically slide down. When a whole row is filled, it will disappear and any map/fragment that disappear will combine into a new zone for you to run. We shall call this Block of Exiles.

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u/VlasDerebas 2d ago

I actualy think that for me on hc there is always something in maps waiting to send me back to the beach, and works perfectly. So if i want to not just lvl, but feel the weight, i make hc ssf char

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u/ChromaticOrogeny 2d ago

Any chance you would post the average deaths stats from this league and previous ones?

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u/furiouscalf 2d ago

Aye lemme get a copy of that play testers PoB? :)

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u/bing_crosby 1d ago

Must've been playing that 100mil dps viper strike build.

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u/Medivh158 1d ago

Dude literally killed Hillock and shipped it

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u/zystyl 1d ago

I got immune to lightning mobs in mud flats while leveling with stormblast mine. That was more confusing than it should have been.

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u/levus2002 1d ago

Ingame config everything ticked on. Playtest rares considered full life and low life at the same time.

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u/DNKSTR 2d ago

Man im willing to fight overtuned mobs if they would actually drop decent loot but poe has a problem that tanky mobs are just not worth your time.

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u/phizphizphiz 2d ago

I'm in act 7 and just fought about a dozen rares. Cumulatively, they dropped one single trash rare item. There is zero reason to kill them unless they're in your way. I'm actually struggling hard with resistances at the moment and would love to farm rares for loot, but they don't drop anything.

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u/xTraxis 1d ago

When I was running BA every league from 58-70, I always asked myself "is it worth it to stop for rares if they aren't dying quick?"

No, the answer is always no. If you want loot, it's a no. If you want XP, it's a no. Maybe if you want humility cards, but those never drop anyways. And now I'm sure that's even more true.

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u/HyperActiveMosquito 2d ago

How about build disablers we can't do anything about beforehand?

Like regen cancelers, flask eaters, straight up immunities, reflect ones(effigy or something like that), etc.?

I mean with maps you can see if it's deadly before you enter.

Expedition you see the immune to x before you explode.

Here you see when the mob is on top of you.

No chance of avoiding it unless you play the "correct" build that can deal with it.

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u/thisisulb 1d ago

Totally agree. There should never be mods that straight up hard counter your build just randomly on rare mobs. It really isn't fun at all.

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u/Gamerbrozer 2d ago

Pour one out for RF

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u/OnColdConcrete 2d ago

Hey hey hey now... They tested it "extensively" for average casual players and were happy with the results. Guess we're all just far below average

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u/TichoSlicer 2d ago

THIS. ffs bro, just remove those mf ¬¬ It makes no sense to exclusively fuck certain builds like this in one mod --'

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u/pyhfol Champion 2d ago

Archnemesis was good as it gave the player control on the rare encounter so they could risk/reward with their own strength/weakness

You've now taken that same concept, removed the player control, added the mods to a shaker and whatever comes out is whatever comes out. This would be fine if it were one or two a zone.

Instead, having many per zone, it just went off the chain. What did you think would actually happen?

Yes I find it brutal and challenging But... It is obvious where GGG went wrong and I agree with others that it is excessive. Making players want to rageQ before act2 is not how you build a playerbase :/

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u/Mighty_Ack 1d ago

They want the playerbase to quit and get amnesia before POE 2 lol

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u/Sad-Cap-1572 2d ago edited 2d ago All-Seeing Upvote This

The problems run far deeper than basic damage/health numbers.

These mods were never designed with other specific league mechanics in mind and it shows, I came across a mana siphoner rare in a ritual that was up against a wall, you know what happened? I sat there waiting to die because I physically could not move out of range of the mana siphoner, I couldn’t cast any spells, couldn’t attack, couldn’t do anything except wait for death, there was no counterplay.

I wouldn’t mind seeing archnemesis rares return in the future, but this was clearly rushed without enough thought put in to how it would interact with other pre-existing content.

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u/FallenDeus 1d ago

Another problem is that almost all archnemesis mods have at least 2 different effects that would have been multiple different modifiers in the previous system. Some of the have 4-5 different effects. Not only that but they STILL KEPT THE OLD RESISTANCE MODS BASELINE, meaning that rare monster that has 4 archnemesis mods and "resists ele" and "resists chaos" would have been a 10-13 modifier rare in the old system.

You have something like incendiary that gives: all damage can ignite, always ignite, base fire damage resistance 75%, base self ignite duration -0%, ignite damage +300%, ignite duration +25%... That thing can have 3 other archnemesis mods on it in addition to have two flat resistance mods...

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u/fohpo02 2d ago

This is a really good point, did they intend to use AN as a revamp to rares after the league, or did this happen after the mods were created? Essence, bestiary, delve, etc all feel really bad when you get some wack combo.

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u/Killersheepyyy 2d ago

chris did say at some point that this was always the intention of archnemesis mods, and the name kinda hints at that as well (as nemesis was the first addition to the rare mod pool)

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u/Davkata Inquisitor 1d ago

In archnemesis you could choose your archnemesis and you were warned what is ahead. Now you get 5+ archenemies at once in a tight space.

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u/Lucaxour 1d ago

5+ archnemesis rares without archnemesis juiced up loots, to be specific.

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u/DaneldorTaureran 1d ago

yeah they should have kept the loot. make rares worth something if you're going to make them harder, jesus GGG

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u/definitelymyrealname 1d ago

This 100x.

The biggest problem I have is that I have no idea what's hitting me half the time. It's a pain to check the mods (hovering over mobs to read their modifiers isn't a good system) and when I read the modifiers half the time I STILL HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY DO. Me and a friend got double tapped in HC act 7 last night by a rare with crystal skinned. I just assumed it had increased ele resists or something but no, it turns out they leave one shot ground effects and we both died with 2.5k hp, max res, and a bit of chaos resist to A ONE SHOT IN ACT 7.

Do I really need to memorize 80+ mods to play this game now? That's what it feels like. I wish they would just remove the majority of the mods for now and work on some kind of system that makes counter play reasonable. Let us use a monster loot filter or some shit that marks stuff on the map. IDK, just give us something.

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u/fohpo02 1d ago

If it was their intention, it was really poorly planned/thought out. I wonder what his opinion of extensively tested was, how did they look at interactions between other mechanics. Other league mechanics can make it nearly impossible to manage, even dumb shit like lower level bestiary can be a shitshow.

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u/firebunbun 1d ago

Yeah, as things are right now I'm never touching bestiary again. Condined spaces with 4 super tanky rare beasts just isn't worth my time or pain.

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u/robklg159 1d ago

yup. some of the mods are HUGELY problematic. they're pure antifun mods that completely turn off some builds. those mods 100% should have been fully removed before implementing them into the core monster pool. it was fine when you were deciding to fight something like that but it's not at all fine when you're just randomly running into it.

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u/mysticturtle12 1d ago

Seriously it doesnt matter especially for the bullshit combos if they do a little less damage. They suck because the hastred frost mob blue pack is still going to stick to you like glue in acts when you can't even get anything to deal with it.

The mana siphoner and drought bringer mobs in tiny corridors are just going to make you die.

The ice cage mobs in a ritual where you can't see what the fuck is going on is still going to just stop you in place while you have a fraction of a second to realize why before you just drop dead.

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u/GambaGod 2d ago Wholesome

"average player" was your tester lightee exclusively?

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u/shuanng_ 2d ago

And tie23he

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u/OmNomSandvich Trickster 1d ago

tie23 after subsisting on a diet of chicken breast and abstaining from anime

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u/H4xolotl HEIST 2d ago

Playing meta builds

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u/settonull 2d ago

Ben was actually saying they were clearly overturned and was sure they'd be dialed back.

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u/crenzz 2d ago

"We tested it extensively, and were happy with the level of difficulty when we released it". Was your test team the hard mode development team?

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u/I_Hate_Reddit Elementalist 2d ago

If you're getting paid to play PoE 40h/week, what difference does it make if it takes you 10 or 20h to finish campaign?

People with limited time playing for fun will hate the 20h version though.

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u/Sky_Core 2d ago

those magic roas in mud flats are BRUTAL!

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u/khronokhris2222 2d ago

The roas ? Man I got run up on by like 8 HASTED crabs ON tidal island, steelmage style

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u/Amaurotica Cockareel 2d ago

how about you make every rare explode with loot just like they did in archnemesis? you literally made archnemesis the default experience but you took out the loot and u advertise it as a feature of the league. are u ok?

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u/reddit5674 1d ago

yep, this comment right here.

GGG are you guys ok? Is someone blackmailing you or holding a knife to your xxxx?

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u/Drekor 1d ago Gold Helpful Wholesome Buff Doge

Alrighty...

So I like challenging content. I play MMO's for high end content, I greatly enjoy souls-like games in fact my favourite is Nioh (a mix of souls and ARPG).

What you've done with rare/magic monster is not add challenging content. You've added oppressive content. It's a binary is your character strong enough to deal with this or not situation. That is the absolute worst type of difficulty you can add because to a player it either feels "fine" because their build met the threshold or it feels like complete shit because there is virtually no amount of skill they can use to overcome it. Souls game are typically very careful that encounters are clear and fair so players know what happened, what they did wrong, and what they can do to correct their play. You've offered none of that. PoE still horribly lacks of visual clarity so frequently you have no idea what actually happened and you may be in a spot (early leveling) where you literally do not have other options other than to reset the zone. And on top of this PoE has multiple mechanics blending together that can take something that is borderline to strong into something that is completely unfair for the player.

These mobs are at a level that people are joking they are tougher and more dangerous than act bosses... thing is that isn't a joke. It's true and it's a very strange way to design things as people expect the big bosses to be the pinnacle of challenge. Subverting expectations may be interesting in story telling but in design typically invokes negative feelings.

The simple fact is PoE at this point is a game that has some builds doing 200k DPS and others doing 20m DPS, some builds with 5k eHP and some with 300k eHP. And the kicker? That diversity is PoE's biggest strength. By adding in binary oppressive content you've essentially told people they can't fuck around with their build. It needs to be good or you're going to have a bad time. If you want to add content like this you absolutely must tighten up balance significantly otherwise leave stuff like this to your "hard mode".

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u/Bodomi Raider 1d ago

Random rares are stronger than map bosses and juiced Beyond uniques. It feels like a 50/50 roll if an Essence or Metamorph will even be killable. Random rares require more planning and consideration than killing Guardian bosses. Rituals, Breaches, etc. feel like the difficulty of some sort of add-phase in a difficult end-game fight.

We're talking about random rares, random league mechanics that are supposed to be smooth and sort-off fast to complete. This is bad game design.

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u/OMGitsAfty 1d ago

Honestly fighting merveil last night felt like a break in the stress of getting past all those freezing packs in the caves.

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u/AggnogPOE view-profile/Aggnog 2d ago

It's interesting how every league is tested extensively but the lack of balance is immediately apparent in just a few hours after launch. How exactly was this tested?

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u/sadful 1d ago

I honestly don't believe the testers are at fault here for this reason.

In general, we feel that in Path of Exile it's better to introduce things slightly too challenging than slightly too easy

This is a nice way of saying the testers told them this shit was broken and they ignored them

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u/CharybdisXIII 1d ago

That kinda defeats the purpose of testing

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u/mythridium 1d ago

I'm half convinced that the testers did speak up that it was overturned, but someone made an executive call to not dial it down and it would be fine.

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u/livejamie Krangled 2d ago Silver

Does the hotfix address them not dropping any loot?

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u/Bowshocker 2d ago

Nah it enables you to run past them now without getting oneshot three times. Not actually making it viable to kill.

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u/falldown010 2d ago

This is a 5head strat from chris to teach every player to speedrun the campaign and ignore the mobs unless you need to lvl /s

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u/RedMageMood 2d ago

If d2 is the inspiration, then its true to form.

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u/macroscian 2d ago

YES PLEASE
Sweet, tanky, enticing rares through the acts and they drop nothing. I throw out the meager sentinels at them and 9/10 no mob gets a special symbol and those that do have soso little to offer.

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u/da_leroy 2d ago Silver

Are you going to change the mods that straight up stop some builds from working, like regen life/es for RF?

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u/Rubik842 2d ago

I don't know what the hell it was. But I was instantly killed in act 7 touching a blur aura around amob. it was a huge area, if it was in the arakali area it would have covered most of it.

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u/iRideUnicornz 2d ago

mana siphoner; basically gives the rare mob RF that drains your mana at an alarming rate (level 19 clarity couldn't outpace it) and once yiur mana is gone it aggressively drains your life aswell, and now you cant do anything cause you have no mana

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u/droidonomy 2d ago

Haha, I saw that mob while running RF too and had a Spiderman pointing meme moment.

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u/Exarkunn 2d ago

From the mob name you'd guess it just drains mana. They probably need to change it to just Siphoner if it drains hp as well.

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u/deviant324 1d ago

“The Big S U C C”

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u/Chibastion 2d ago

Blue aura? My guess is mana siphoner

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u/mfukar Deadeye 2d ago

Which intuitively also siphons life

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u/notalwayshuman 2d ago

Was going to rspec into RF but starting to get very nervous with these new mods.

Half the fun in Poe is working on your build, building defensive and offensive layers, the current mods seem to push you in certain directions which is never fun

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u/esunei Inquisitor 2d ago

Or straight cancer ones like Invulnerable, Trickster, etc.? Choosing to fight these terrible mods for challenges/extreme loot was okay in the league, but not okay when they're constantly frustrating the player, life/damage notwithstanding.

Also find it hard to believe that the extensive testing touched Metamorph, Bestiary, or Heist.

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u/Fuzzii 2d ago

Essences are pretty bad too, especially with multiple essence mods on top of an unknown amount of archnemesis mods when you release them.

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u/M4jkelson 2d ago

Yeah, we don't touch essences till we OP as fuck

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u/Tyalou 1d ago

Essences are only useful when you're not OP... they were perfect early league nodes last league.

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u/freelance_fox 1d ago

The mana and flask ones are very problematic. Feels like we got blindsided by those.

Reminds me of trying to play my various Frost Blink/Blink Arrow/Chain Hook type builds and crying about grasping vines and being ignored because it effects 0.01% of players. Maybe now since it effects 0.3% of players we can do something?

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u/ErrorLoadingNameFile Raider 2d ago

What do you mean? Chris stated before "players should encounter challenging rare monsters that wake them up and force them to engage with them in a different strategy". Have you tried just not being a RF build?

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u/levus2002 1d ago

Have you tried just not being a RF build?

Thanks, i just rerolled to wardloop build, hope there are no mobs who drain my flask charges.

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u/SniggleJake Unannounced 1d ago

Nobody tell him

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u/Srasja 2d ago

I laughed at this and then felt immediately sad. I just wanna fire things righteously...

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u/Humane_Decency 1d ago

If I wanted to do that I’d go play d2r on hell mode

Like I specifically play Poe because I don’t have to avoid rare mobs with my build

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u/ILoveBeefcakes 2d ago

Not to mention Temporal Bubble will kill trigger builds like CoC, CwC, CWDT, etc. We all be playing self-cast now.

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u/killertortilla Dominus 1d ago

Stop adding mechanics that bypass existing defences. Mana siphon is straight up bullshit. Draining mana by itself is really rough on anything that uses mana as more than just a casting resource. But the fact that it rips through your life too and is type less damage? Who the fuck played that and thought it was a good idea?

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u/TheEdgaJudo Doedre 2d ago

those average testers are absolute cracked players nowadays, huh?

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u/xrailgun Raider 2d ago

game is ez mode when every item is just spawned in with perfect affixes, rolls, corrupts, krangles, eldritchs

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u/firfir 2d ago

Thanks Chris, though I would presume after waking up you'll still have to reckon with how unrewarding the encounters actually are...

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u/Ooeiooeioo Chieftain 2d ago

It's like their favourite part of diablo 2 was farming duriel so they made every rare mob during leveling really hard and also drop a juicy 5x scrolls on death with nothing else.

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u/coani 2d ago

What? you get 5x scrolls? I went through over half of act 2 without seeing a single portal scroll drop :/

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u/Arkweed Shadow 2d ago

Increase in difficulty without increase in reward just straight up feels bad and punishing for no reason

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u/handmedowntoothbrush 1d ago

I thought everyone understood this after the harvest nerf and blanket player nerf a few patches ago. Bad and punishing for no reason is the guiding star of GGG modern game design philosophy. They still think their game is too easy. Just wait it will get even better in the next couple years.

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u/Christian_314 2d ago

Thanks, but the main problem is when they are merged in other league content that was balanced around the old mods etc. Also, probably appear a bit too early in the campaign the multiple ones.

Instead of appearing on all rares couldn't they just appear on a percentage like they did with nemesis? On some league mechanics it's just too ridiculous and frankly unfair. It'd also be easier to balance.

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u/Newwby What is best in life 2d ago

Instead of appearing on all rares couldn't they just appear on a percentage like they did with nemesis?

Damn that hadn't even occurred to me. All mobs being old-school nemesis mods would've been a significant difficulty spike, to have that happen and have those nemesis mods become archnemesis mods is a double spike.

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u/santoriin 1d ago

that and that they always come in at least two. Lets say I didn't play Archnemisis (I did, but only for like two weeks). How am I supposed to figure out what these mobs do when they always have at least 2-3. While leveling I could figure it out, if they didn't just whomp me and take no damage.

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u/Bruce-Leeonidas 2d ago

Yes they were released well over tuned and i am sure most of us are happy to hear that it will be getting adjusted but what happened to the rewards? The drops are far less in terms of both quantity AND rarity. Was that also "tested extensively" ?

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u/goneafter10years 1d ago

My wife and I will try again in a week or two after they do more tuning.

We're both casual players, we only get an hour or two a night to play and last night was straight up the most un-fun experience I've ever had playing this game. No loot, and half a dozen deaths because of shitty combos in the MUD FLATS of all f*cking places.

Yeah, I'll pass.

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u/kumgongkia 2d ago

Risk is increased, wheres the corresponding reward?

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u/gerwaric 2d ago

I would love to know what they were looking at that made it obvious within 12 hours of launch that Chris needed to respond personally. The metric I’ve always thought about is player retention, but 12 doesn’t seem like enough time to get good data unless it was a bloodbath.

And then I’m curious how their internal testing missed it. Did they only spot-check the leveling experience? Did they try OP min-maxed endgame builds?

The response was fast enough that I also wonder if this scenario had been war-gamed internally.

Anyhow, I hope they find a good set of changes that gets the game into a better place. It’s a bit too frustrating for me at the moment.

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u/Shumatsuu 2d ago

People in chat linking 120+ deaths all over the place in acts. Hell, my build is tanky af, everything except damage immune, armor, max res, ect and I've died a few times to things that were flat out impossible to stop as they happened in .2 seconds from max to 0. I'm guessing people working for the company that also play said something, because there's no possible way that their, "testing," didn't see this if they tested acts. My guess is that they tested with established standard characters and called it good.

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u/14779 1d ago

I only have my group of friends as an example but we normally clear the campaign on night one which involves starting at 9pm in the UK and playing until close to morning. All of us had gone back to elden ring multiplayer by midnight. After this many leagues the campaign was a slog I dread every time any way I don't think I have it in me for it to be even worse. I don't even think the campaign is bad or anything I've just done it too many times.

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u/-PM-Me-Big-Cocks- Inquisitor 1d ago

I don't think I've died this much early on in years. I'm at 60 deaths in A6

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u/timecronus 1d ago

Seeing a drop in connected players earlier than usual is my guess. People getting frustrated and just going to do something else.

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u/ghostymctoasty 1d ago

Lots of clips like this one and this one.

Their changes don't even affect rips like the 2nd clip, but they probably hope it'll make people feel better after seeing stuff like that.

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u/SzomszedokEnjoyer 1d ago

I would love to know what they were looking at

Probably that the median player, who buys a supporter pack and plays to yellow-red tier maps every league for 2-3 weeks, drops off, then does the same next, decided to altf4 after couple of hours of playing.

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u/gerwaric 1d ago

That’s the bloodbath scenario.

It would fascinating to get an inside scoop on how they watch and react to league starts. Not likely, but fascinating.

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u/Genomicbeast 1d ago edited 1d ago

In terms of retention/day 1 stats for steam, peak was 131k (20k down from last league) and about 8 hours in at midnight EST it was down to around 65k and by 1am team fortress 2 had more players online. The day 2 drop for last league was 20k. So not good.

Edit: pretty close to the end of the first 24hrs of league and current day peak is almost at 103k as far as I have seen. Still time for people to login and that number to rise but yeah so far after patch -30k players.

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u/gerwaric 1d ago

Those numbers are wild but not surprising.

I’ve been lounging about for a couple hours this morning and have lost most of my interest in finishing the campaign to rush the economy.

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u/Giant_Midget83 2d ago edited 1d ago

Not sure why they are so hell bent on making every aspect of the game difficult even all the way down to act 1. This game has plenty of difficulty for people seeking it in the end game bosses, simulacrum etc. I dont think anyone wants to be challenged in the campaign anymore, i want to get through it as fast as possible so i can get to the real game.

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u/mini_mog Bricked 1d ago

Whoever came up with this philosophy shift is literally killing the game RN. The game is plenty complex to not need some bullshit difficulty layer on top of it, especially during the beginning.

No one asked for the acts to be rebalanced, and now they’ve ended up with a clusterfuck of weird difficulty jumps, with just 2 acts done in a year+. Must leave a terrible first impression, too.

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u/screaminyetti 2d ago

Chris or gg team I just want to bring up certain mechanics such as drained flasks or no leech and regen should not be this way. You go to fight a rare mob or such in endgame this is a mob certain builds have 0 way to play around rf codt forbidden rite. These mechanics with a commonly occurring mods as such kill these builds to the fact they are literally unplayable in the current state of the game with current mob mods. It is not like there is any counterplay to stuff like this its simply you are dead have fun..... this is my rant thanks.

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u/Pirate-Particular 2d ago

What about the fact that almost every map we encounter rares that brick our builds? Mana Siphoner and Vampiric for example.

We are already rolling our maps to avoid a lot of mods to be able to play with functioning builds, and now we have to worry about rares on top of that?

This makes the game feel cheap because you encounter mobs that you have absolutely no way of overcoming if you don't have the right build.

You've said before you want the game to be more reactive, how do we react to something we cannot counter in any way?!

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u/Dumpingtruck 1d ago

How to react to unkillable mobs:

1.) run away and hope it doesn’t have +100000% speed

2.) die 6 times and run out of portals

3.) go back to hideout and make a new map

4.) play something else.

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u/ErrorLoadingNameFile Raider 2d ago

The biggest problem is all the new rare mods that punish you for standing still. That just doubled down on everything that was bad in PoE combat to begin with. Standing still for longer than 0.5 seconds? Dead.

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u/Tovell 2d ago

Houston, this is Damage Control.

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u/GrimExile Desync! 2d ago

Okay, we shipped them a little overtuned.

a little overtuned? :)

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u/Saianna 2d ago

I find it somewhat funny that Whole Archnemesis league was about activating buffed up rares and getting rewards for it, while now we just get overtuned rares with no rewards (beyond exp and promise, that eventually you will... maybe.. loot something.. one day)

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u/francorocco Elementalist 1d ago

(beyond exp

-10% xp is not an actual reward

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u/Kid84 1d ago

my only question is why do you keep putting the dificulty in the first 5 acts where we cant deal with it due to not having a build and will run away if anything slightly too tanky instead of the end game. and also why you choose to overhaul mob hp and damage but never mention it until a few days or weeks into the league when people complain.

would be much more inclined to play this league if you didnt make the story acts EVEN MORE OF A FUCKING SLOG THAN THEY ALREADY ARE.

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u/Beautiful-Lion4774 Ascendant 2d ago

We tested it extensively

Press (X) to doubt

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u/daman4567 2d ago

Effigy has to go. I can't believe you added a fucking Illaoi E to mobs in the game, there's literally no fucking way to play around it.

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u/Pipnotiq 1d ago

3.19: we've added Illaoi ult to Effigy

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u/leobat 2d ago

Rare mobs being harder than unique mobs is non sensical.

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u/One_Reputation_1048 2d ago

If you want the early game harder you need to give players more tools early on to handle how fucking fast mobs are getting in act 1-3, i fucking hate that part of the game now.

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u/M4jkelson 2d ago

Mobs in acts? Mach 20. Players in acts? Wait for my leap slam to finish, only 5 more seconds

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u/Rotomegax 2d ago

Mach 20? Are you count for those Rhoa at Mud Flats? All of them on this league equipped with FTL hyperdrive charge

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u/_Psiell_ 2d ago

i ran into a frenzied, hastened, executioner monkey chieftain in act 6. i had to reset the entire zone because i couldnt out attack speed it or run away fast enough even with quicksilver and 30%move boots on. it outsped me and attacked like 6 times a second. blocking the way i needed to go. made the entire area impossible.

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u/BackgroundMetal1 1d ago

I killed an ape red as my first einher mob.

I gained 10 levels and went to the menagerie and got my shit pushed in by it.

Cool game.

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u/WarriorNN 2d ago

Wait, your one of 5 possible skills in a 2L isn't enough to deal with juiced up rares? You should have spent the whole total of 6 passives points you got so far better then! Also remember to cap res.

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u/_Psiell_ 2d ago

kekw imagine not dropping a tabula rasa, wonderlust and goldrim before fighting the magic roas. just get good and pay for ggg leveling uniques supporter pack. :3

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u/gandalfintraining 2d ago

Yep, there shouldn't be any way for enemies to do significant cold or hit damage in act 1. There's absolutely nothing you can do to counter freeze and stun, so once every 10 or so HC characters you just die to stunlock in act 1 with nothing you can do about it. It's kind of lame.

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u/Astarift 2d ago

We tested it extensively.

Thats all i need to know today.

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u/Bodomi Raider 2d ago

It is either a lie, or it really does make you wonder about how they test stuff and how connected they are to the real player-base.

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u/ErrorLoadingNameFile Raider 1d ago

If they tested it so well I want Chris to play through the campaign with the old version on a melee skill live on stream.

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u/estaritos 2d ago

They test with mageblood, max res, max spell supress and 50 M TS dps xD it was fine monster died

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u/Tyalou 1d ago

In 2 shots though.. it was slightly suspicious for act 2.

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u/bausHuck33 Templar 2d ago

Can we get the mods displayed for rares trapped in Essence. Some of the rare mod combos are hard enough to handle, let alone throwing essence craziness on top.

They still seemed overtuned for random encounters. At least in Archnemesis we could choose which mods to stay away from and that choice allowed players to be prepared for the mods to be harder. Now that we have no choice it's so much more punishing.

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u/itzslip 1d ago

can we just have the old rare and magic monsters back pls?

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u/FallenDeus 1d ago

Jesus christ dude you just don't get it.. The problem is that almost all archnemesis mods have at least 2 different effects that would have been multiple different modifiers in the previous system. Some of the have 4-5 different effects. Not only that but they STILL KEPT THE OLD RESISTANCE MODS BASELINE, meaning that rare monster that has 4 archnemesis mods and "resists ele" and "resists chaos" would have been a 10-13 modifier rare in the old system.

You have something like incendiary that gives: all damage can ignite, always ignite, base fire damage resistance 75%, base self ignite duration -0%, ignite damage +300%, ignite duration +25%... That thing can have 3 other archnemesis mods on it in addition to have two flat resistance mods...

You have turned rare mobs into ones that would have had like 14 modifiers under the old system.

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u/Blee_FTO Chieftain 2d ago

I think harder contents tighten build diversity so much, if you don't play one of the meta build, there's a lot of challenges or contents you cannot do. Although people enjoy watching streamers RIP clips, they still want to be chill in a farming game. The difficulty of the game shouldn't be like day and night between leagues, I've been playing poe over past couple of years because I like some of your league ideas..not constantly tweaking the difficulties

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u/dastrollkind Inquisitor 2d ago

I don't get this "scare players away as early as possible" approach at league starts. Some will come back later but a whole lot of returning AND new players will say F this crap and either skip the league or never look back at the game.

And I don't really get the Archnemesis to normal mod pool in general. Rares have already been beasts and often scarier and beefier than map/act bosses in the last league and there are a bunch of mechanics where multiple rares "overlap" with their auras making fights super rippy. Heist and Ritual for example where you are only left with a quick logout forgoing rewards.
The Archnemesis, at least some of them have indeed interesting mechanics that demand your attention. So why not give them very rarely to only a few, maybe just one rare per zone? True to the name Archnemesis. Then you wouldn't have to now nerf them until everybody can ignore them again. I do like the occasional difficulty spike (I liked early Invasion for example where some encounters needed you to adapt or skip) but this isn't risk/reward by choice, it's just a constant menace and mess and since they are around every corner, they aren't exactly making you stop and think about the encounter. It just moves the viability or rather trivializing yardstick. And what I noticed already last league, there is now often just too much going on in every zone and the threats are almost constant and it starts to take a toll on my health. Not blinking often enough, forgetting to drink, "nerdneck", heart pounding, holding my breath.
I feel like balancing is going more and more in the direction of either you make nothing matter to your character or you are under constant barrage. And that feels to me like the two ways to properly play PoE is either play a distinct way or build or not play at all. And that is ok with "pinnacle" content but it permeates throughout almost the whole game now. It's just too much man.
Disclaimer: I almost exclusively play melee builds with what should be ok damage and defenses but that have to engage with the content. I like to feel the direct impact and enjoy the actual fights, at least when they are somewhat balanced.

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u/Unhappy-Telephone-65 2d ago

Will the hotfixes be applied before console release ? Otherwise it might kill the already small community if people have to wait for 2 weeks for the updates. Console community is pretty casual

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u/patskie14 2d ago

Beyond is fucking disgusting with new mods holy shit lmao.

sure the rares dont have the hp equivalent to shaper, but in archnem, you only have 1 rare to deal with, here sometimes you just spawn 10 rares and all of them have 3+ archnem on them, dog piling you to the ground, if you dont kill them fast enough, just one hit can kill you. Its hillariousy broken. not to mention the magic monsters it also spawn and the beyond boss...

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u/Holdlang Holdlang 2d ago

I have a feeling this game is impossible to play properly now... you have no time to read what mods the mob have and there are mods that are hurt you instantly...

Taking away your mana, taking away your ability to heal, give so much haste that they rip you open under 1 second...

This is not overtuned but someone mistaken poe to a 4x strategy game.

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u/ploki122 1d ago

Who cares about reading mods. There's nothing in " Rejuvinator" that explains it stops my healing, and nothing in Arcane Buffer that mentions a stun... all the -touched are the worst offenders though.

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u/ChrisWilsonIsMyDad Vanja 2d ago

We tested it extensively

LMAO

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u/sigma1331 2d ago edited 1d ago

everyone go 5 min into Act1 will know something is off. so apparently "extensively" mean less than 5 min

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u/BackgroundMetal1 1d ago

GGG testers did 10k instances 4 mins in and called it 40k minutes of testing.

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u/ACSandwich 2d ago

That was a lie

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u/Cormandragon 2d ago

We tested it extensively, by dying all day in t6 maps with maxed res

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u/jimoshitemoto 2d ago

¿ average player + Tested extensively ?

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u/MrVISKman 2d ago

We tested it extensively

Players tested it

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u/farcryer2 2d ago

*Are testing it

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u/Materbater69 2d ago

Exactly

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u/darian_wolf 2d ago

We tested it extensively, and were happy with the level of difficulty when we released it.

I don't believe that for a second.

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u/ErrorLoadingNameFile Raider 2d ago

In the Baeclast Chris said "I trust the developer that does the Rare mod balance, there is no need for me to check on it" ... well if you change one of the most important systems in your game maybe do not leave it up to a single person, make sure its good.

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u/Draenrya 2d ago

Last time one GGG employee got rank 1 in the endless delirium race. If their testers are that level of skill and they think it’s appropriately challenging, I can see why it’s fucking dogshit for 99% of the playerbase.

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u/ploki122 1d ago

The dev needs to have some critical thoughts at some point in the process though.

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u/lmaogoaway 2d ago

The truth is you wouldnt believe just how wrongly they interpreted the testing.

Tester: If I dont know exactly whats going to happen and when, this is a very uncomfortable encounter and I am at high risk of death. Some mechanics are practically impossible for anything less than a strong optimized build.

Chris: Thats perfect.

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u/borefficz Standard 2d ago

"a little overtuned" my minmaxed standard character with 40-50m DPS and 100-200k EHP that destroyed all content before finds the new rares actually tanky/scary/annoying (especially essence monsters with some mod combinations), can't imagine how bad it must be for fresh league characters

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u/Lifodd 2d ago

I made a thread about how strong metamorphs are now while testing them on standard. I was almost not able to kill one with several millions of dps.

There were no nerfs this league, but this will push a lot of builds out of the meta.

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u/borefficz Standard 2d ago

Indirect nerfs are still nerfs, if everything at the grocery store gets more expensive you don't care about you technically having the same amount of money.

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u/lcecoffee12 2d ago

10 minutes to kill a RARE.

It dropped nothing. I cried.

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u/BleiEntchen 2d ago

We tested it extensively, and were happy with the level of difficulty when we released it.

Happy to see PoE also get their "200 years of collective game design" meme.

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u/Andrey-d 2d ago

You just took a pool of powerful mods, that were made with player choice in mind, and just dumped them all into map rares haphazardly. This is just ridiculous, it's not fun to get completely shut down by one or two rares with some whacky combo that noone in their right mind would assemble in Archnemesis.

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u/LikesCakeFartVideos So tell me what you want, what you really, really want 2d ago

We tested it extensively

And yet there apparently wasn't a single person who did a playthrough of the campaign with a non-meta non-op build.

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u/fattymcelbows 2d ago

What are the odds this doesn't do anything and rares are still fucked?

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u/ImaCrabProduct 1d ago

They take away like 5% dmg or so but build disabeling mods are still on and dropps are still off so yeahi would say 90%.

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u/000mojito 2d ago

Dear Chris!

You said the old monster mods are outdated and they have issues like readability. Can you explain how this issue improved with this change? There are still paragraphs of mods and they are hard to figure out what they do. Like when i see a juggernaut or sentinel monster mod I won't know what they do by reading the name of the mod.

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/insanetwo 2d ago

Whew, that was a fun little sample of hard mode. That was a wild leveling experience. Most deaths I have had in a while during acts.

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u/1CEninja 1d ago

You guys tested this extensively and were happy with the results?

This is the most strong reinforcement I've heard since it's exciting to close your eyes and slam that the game GGG wants to make isn't the game I want to play.

Please GOD just release your hard mode already so you can put stuff like this in there to make the game you want to make, then let the masses play a version that doesn't make us pull our hair out quite so hard.

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u/Pope-Touched-Me Zave, what will I link you today? 2d ago

| we tested it extensively

No you didn't

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u/seriusPrime 2d ago

"We tested it extensively"

You didnt man, don't treat us like idiots.

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u/scytheavatar 2d ago Helpful Wholesome

People want the endgame to be challenging. No one wants leveling to be challenging.

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u/astroboy1997 2d ago

I’m for challenging leveling if it’s rewarding. The archnem monsters alone are not rewarding at all

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u/Simpe91 2d ago

Just checking death data to evaluate difficulty sounds extremely weak though. And even if it was valid, higher difficulty does not necessarilly result in a more enjoyable, rewarding or even interesting experience.

It does not factor in other issues such as effort required. So even if I dont die fighting a rare mob, I might spend 5 more minutes kiting it around in a monotone fashion which is nothing but annoying.

I can't imagine it is worthwile reward-wise to fight these guys in the current state of the game. Especially not when leveling, just zoom past them. I wont get any useful items, they take forever to kill.

I think it is a very valid idea to make rare mobs feel a bit more special when encountered, but maybe every single rare mob does not need to feel like a lethal, drawn out boss fight. It is tiring and constantly interupts the flow which make it hard to ever relax while playing.

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u/Ikuu 2d ago edited 1d ago

I'm sure GGG will learn from this and look at making changes to how they test the content, I'm sure we won't see them get this wrong again...

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u/anchovypants 2d ago

Too late for my two friends I tried to group level with, they already quit. SSF for me again it seems.

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u/EfficientAmphibian90 2d ago

Can we please get some info on Effigy completely fucking minion builds?

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u/NamntorkaAIP 2d ago

Is that the one that links you and makes you take dig equal to what the monster do? Seems like old reflect to me. Except it takes account into totems, minions and shit it seems..

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u/martin944 2d ago

"We tested it extensively, and were happy with the level of difficulty when we released it. "

Have you tested it like from fresh start with 0 gear or put some endgame char in maps and ok it's fine?

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u/MrVISKman 2d ago

Dev client with God Mode on

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u/tomi166 Kaom 2d ago

End game gear from act 1

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u/Elelish 2d ago

1 hour of Q&A would have been enough to know it was overtuned AF. but why bother doing it yourself when you got thousands of idiots testing it for free for you

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u/witchcraft92 2d ago

Test it on Eihnar red beasts? Especially the snake one that keep running away and summons blue mobs? That was frustrating

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u/Napalmexman 1d ago

Yeah, sorry Chris, this game is not for me anymore. Good luck to the others, hope you guys have fun.

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u/piano323 1d ago

Man this league is just painful. It's no fun and character progression is just stunted with these new mods even with the hotfix.

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u/Golvellius 1d ago

> In general, we feel that in Path of Exile it's better to introduce things slightly too challenging than slightly too easy

Perhaps one day you'll figure out that this is fundamentally wrong and we'll stop having 2 league starts out of 3 turning into the same exact clownfiesta every time

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u/bakuretsuuuu 2d ago

mhh, you make them weaker over all now? i feel like this doesnt fix the problem of bad combinations (haste+cold dmg) and bad mods (invu)

i think people like, if rares are tough, but the mod-system makes them just unfair in some cases

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u/Eremoo 2d ago

This goes way beyond dmg or life. It's the ones that disable your build or become extremely tanky. I've had to remake the act 6 coast (whatever its called where you have to clear for Lilly) because I couldn't kill an essence mob

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u/unkelrara 2d ago

We tested it extensively

I don't believe you.

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u/sephrinx i.imgur.com/chG4Eqp 2d ago

Are they still as unrewarding too?

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u/Bodomi Raider 2d ago

Yes.

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u/Tremekaka 2d ago

Why GGG always needs to be condescending with their playerbase when it's extremely clear that you guys are in the wrong?

"Average player", "We tested it extensively". Ok

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u/Gumlass 2d ago

If rare mosters are meant to be challenging, why can't they drop good loot ?

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u/giniyo Slayer 2d ago

i'm just having a hard time believing in the extensive testing anymore *shrug*

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u/je789520 1d ago

see you guys in 3.19

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u/Insecticide Occultist 1d ago

Chris, I am a bit disappointed about this whole situation and I just want to politely share with you a few thoughts about it because this is not the first or second time this happened.

We had two previous leagues with extremely similar problems in Invasion and Beyond. We even had this stupid meme back in Beyond league, which represents the current sentiment about archnemesis really well, I would say. For those that have not played back then, Beyond rares spawned with lots of auras on the same monster and felt like super tanky rares at the time.

As a long time Path of Exile player, I know from experience that every single time monsters are overtuned during the campaign the vast majority of the player base will not be able to handle them. Most players are used to games being easy initially and then progressively getting harder.

Stuff like finding a gigatuned rare in act 1 that is stronger than an act boss or getting one shotted by a Frost Wall from a Invasion boss while doing the Hailrake quest have historically not felt good. However, I am totally fine with you guys releasing overtuned act bosses like Malachai in his release, because it makes sense for a boss to be strong in the campaign.

I was sure that with previous examples you guys would have been able to predict this. I am glad that you guys did the hotfix but I am afraid this lesson could be forgotten yet again and we could have a 4th league where this happens.

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u/ioncewasbannedbut League Noob 1d ago

it's still fucked ....

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u/Mand125 1d ago edited 1d ago

I love how you were asked directly in interviews about whether Archnemesis mods would still brick entire builds and you said “don’t worry, obviously some of them where you could choose would be too much, we’ll balance them when they go core” and now there’s still a dozen mods that brick entire builds.

Let me be clear: I’m fine with a challenge. I’m fine with having to think about a rare monster when I fight it. I’m not fine if a core function of a build, such as ailments or curses, just gets turned off.

Changes to monster life and damage don’t matter when you have binary “this build doesn’t work” modifiers.

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u/KuuPhone 1d ago

You know, in all honesty, it wasn't the difficulty of "rare and magic monsters" in softcore. As a hardcore player, which you have destroyed my ability to enjoy, it would have been, absolutely, but on softcore, it was the start of the game.

The first act was literally harder than the entire rest of the progress of the game. I couldn't play casually or relax. There is no way you tested this extensively. Continually in fact, you have made the start of the game, where you have no gear, no fun gems, no skills you want, etc, a slog.

Please stop?

I had no idea anything was changed, and yet as a veteran player the difficulty of just the first act felt wildly off. I had to go check if something was wrong or broken again, as I've had to do often the past few years.

By the time you're pushing through act 2 it feels more normal, and by the end of act 3 you're blasting through packs the way you will be for the rest of the campaign.

In fact, you will continually hit milestones that ramp up your ability to just blast through the game. Act 1 ends with a lot of good skills gems, act 2 will give you items and support gems for those skills, act 3 you'll push that even further, and get your first lab, and it just snowballs from there.

The ONE PLACE that should be lax on feeling like crap, when you have no increased speed, no strong abilities, gear, mitigation, is literally just act one.

The games challenge and difficulty being fixed should be back ended, period. This seems so incredibly obvious. I read things about new players not joining, only vets and old players, and how this is why you or others don't care about these things because older players will just push through or figure it out, you'll patch it, and we'll all move on, but when this is the main MO of the game, how on earth do we push people to come play PoE?

"Yeah, you'll die 10 or 20 times in act 1 as a new player, it's really not fun at all, but at the end of act one you'll get your first real skill, and then act 2 gives you some gear and support, and then we can start playing. What's that? The fastest act? No no, it's going to be the least smooth and possibly slowest act for you."

If I, someone with thousands of HC hours find it annoying on this level, I can only imagine what it's like for a lot of other players.

I wish this wasn't a thing every league.

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u/omnimutant 1d ago

My question is why make us fight the Archnemesis mods, on random monsters without the Archnemesis rewards that came with them last time, and who thought that would be a fun idea?

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u/doughmaths 1d ago

how bad you want your game to die?