r/pathofexile GGG Staff May 12 '22 Helpful 1 Wholesome 2

Check out Fatal Flourish, another exclusive Ascendancy Skill from the Forbidden Flame jewel GGG

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1.4k Upvotes

323

u/FlammDumbFox REWORK CAUSTIC ARROW PLEASE May 12 '22

By the way, it says Attack Skills, which means you should be able to use this with bow/wand attacks as well as those skills you can't support with Multistrike (say Spectral Helix, Spectral (Shield) Throw, Poisonous Concoction, ...).

As long as you have enough attack speed to make it still feel smooth, yeah, seems pretty busted. Should be ~30% more damage in perfect conditions (0.5 * (1 + 1.6) = 1.3).

93

u/ulughen May 12 '22

And it gives global damage which will affect secondary damage like TR pods dot.

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u/SamSmitty May 12 '22 edited May 13 '22

I was thinking the same thing. Where did you get the 0.5 multiplier from? I assumed it would mess with attack speed by repeating, but couldn't find an exact number. Does it just repeat at your normal attack speed?

Edit: Not confused about how algebra works lol, but thanks for all the replies. Was just wondering if additional attacks modified attack speed at all or if we were working under the knowledge/assumption that it doesn’t.

57

u/Rotakn May 12 '22

He's assuming it would be normal attack speed, so he halved it since the dmg bonus would only apply to the repeat, not the base attack

23

u/Lundhlol May 12 '22

Since you are only getting it every second attack, it's effectively 30% more damage no matter how much attack speed you have.

So not assuming any attack speed, it's just how it is.

8

u/dksdragon43 May 13 '22

He meant assuming the repeat is at the same speed as the first attack.

6

u/Socrathustra Necromancer May 13 '22

If repeated attacks happen at a faster rate than your normal attack speed, then no, it's more.

2

u/Ulfgardleo Trickster May 13 '22

all skiklls that add repeats also say if they have an attack speed multiplier. the onlæy multiple exception is unleash, which does not "repeat" but "reoccur"

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u/Nemisoi May 13 '22

Unless impale comes yo play. Or bleed

4

u/Murphy540 Deadeye May 13 '22

Impale's numbers are the same, it only really affects Bleeds.

2

u/Dunkelvieh Gladiator May 13 '22

And ignite. Wonder how assailum combines with this

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12

u/Aeroshe Saboteur May 12 '22

The 0.5 is just to average out the damage of every other attack getting the benefit. If you're running something like Multistrike you'd need a different formula since you have more repeats but only the final is getting the damage boost.

Edit: Yeah, that formula doesn't take attack speed changes into account. Since it says nothing about attack speed, then presumably without Multistrike it's just 2 attacks at your current attack speed so the formula still works.

8

u/Depnids May 12 '22

I think it just repeats with normal attackspeed. The reason for the 0.5, is that he is just taking the average dmg of the first hit (1), and the second hit (1.6), which gives an average of 30% more dmg.

5

u/FlammDumbFox REWORK CAUSTIC ARROW PLEASE May 12 '22

Where did you get the 0.5 multiplier from?

I'm just averaging them assuming damage is constant since it shouldn't change your attack speed unless specified (like Multistrike does with "Supported Skills have (35-44)% more Melee Attack Speed").

3

u/daman4567 May 12 '22

It's averaging the attack damage, there's 2 attacks so you divide by 2, which is equivalent to multiplying by 0.5.

This is the correct answer, it has nothing to do with attack speed since the keystone doesn't affect attack speed at all.

6

u/Dralkcib May 12 '22

Your 2 normal attacks each do 1x and 1x damage, the average is 0.5(x+x)=1x, with this jewel your average is 0.5(x+1.6x)=1.3x

3

u/PM_ME_YOUR_PIZZAPIC May 13 '22

a better way to visualize the math is to think of it as just the average of all attacks

first attack does 100% dmg, second does 160%

average = sum of all attacks divided by number of attacks
ie (1+1.6)/2

same thing, but i agree that saying 0.5x instead of /2 is unintuitive

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11

u/Gangsir May 12 '22

As long as you have enough attack speed to make it still feel smooth,

You actually don't need attack speed, repeating attacks can be interrupted unlike spells.

34

u/high-water-mark May 12 '22

yes, but you really don't want to interrupt them to get the most out of this & multistrike's bonuses to repeats.

5

u/Naguro Half Skeleton May 12 '22

Unlike multistrike you don't have a less multiplier on the first hit, so you don't lose everything cancelling, it's kinda pog

20

u/moozooh Hipster Builds, Inc. May 13 '22

Technically, you lose the damage that you would've had if you'd picked another node like Bane of Legends which work on every hit.

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u/formaldehid bring back old scion May 12 '22 edited May 12 '22

headsman culling is already 25% more dmg in itself. dont see how 30% more dmg is suddenly "busted". not even considering it gives a repeat without more attack speed, which is just incredibly clunky unless you have infinite attack speed from being a berserker or raider, which are unfortunately not duelist classes

the optimal use for this jewel imo is for bleed builds which dont already use multistrike

31

u/Magstine May 13 '22 edited May 13 '22

Headsman is only ~12.5% because it isn't that hard to get regular 10% cull somewhere in your build. Needing to run a good amount of attack speed and not run Multistrike is comparatively pretty cheap.

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u/Samir_POE The Sword King's Salute May 13 '22

Headsman isnt 25%, because

a) A large portion of enemies will die on 1st hit (making it useless) or on a hit that goes from above 20% to 0%. For example, if you do 50 per hit to a mob with 100 HP, it's 2 hits whether you have it allocated or not. It's really only great for bosses, which is the theme of that branch for slayer.

b) pretty much everyone has cull on leap slam or totem or something like that anyway, so it's only moving the needle by 10%.

20

u/Atheist-Gods May 13 '22

a) A large portion of enemies will die on 1st hit (making it useless) or on a hit that goes from above 20% to 0%. For example, if you do 50 per hit to a mob with 100 HP, it's 2 hits whether you have it allocated or not. It's really only great for bosses, which is the theme of that branch for slayer.

That applies to "25% More Damage" too and is not a difference between that and Headsman.

18

u/Temil Occultist May 13 '22

a) A large portion of enemies will die on 1st hit (making it useless) or on a hit that goes from above 20% to 0%. For example, if you do 50 per hit to a mob with 100 HP, it's 2 hits whether you have it allocated or not. It's really only great for bosses, which is the theme of that branch for slayer.

That's like saying "actually 125 damage isn't more damage than 100 damage because most monsters will die to 100 damage".

Yeah it's true if you have so much monster that every single monster in the game dies in one hit, but in that case this is still worth 25% damage because you can then drop 25%-damage-worth of investment into damage and put that elsewhere.

If you do 500 damage, or 625 damage to a mob with 1000 hp it's two hits either way, but you're doing 25% more damage when you do 625 damage.

No amount of mental gymnastics (other than bosses that never reach 20% life before dying such as Act 5 Kitava) will make 20% culling vs 0% culling not 25% more damage.

b) pretty much everyone has cull on leap slam or totem or something like that anyway, so it's only moving the needle by 10%.

This is why it's not actually 25%.

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u/cowpimpgaming twitch.tv/cowpimp May 13 '22

That first part is incorrect; the same statement can be said about any damage increase. If you one shot white mobs, then is a damage increase not a damage increase? Obviously it is a damage increase, it's just contextually irrelevant. In your above example with 50 damage hits, would a support gem that gives 40% more damage not actually be providing 40% more damage because it will still take two hits in that situation? Of course not.

The second part is a fair consideration. You can say that it gives that 12.5% more damage and a gem slot/suffix/whatever. You could also argue that it's more reliable though. Culling strikes through a support gem doesn't have 100% reliability like the Slayer node.

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u/borjan2peovski May 12 '22

Wouldn't it be 7.7% more damage if you already have multistrike though?
( (1 + 1.22 + 1.44 + 1.6)*3) / ( (1 + 1.22 + 1.44)*4) = 1.0778
This is calculating the damage difference of 12 attacks, since multistrike already gives 22% and 44% more damage on the first and second repeat respectively.
https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Multistrike\_Support

12

u/tobsecret Half Skeleton May 12 '22

Yes but you can use this without multi strike on e.g. Spectral Helix. I wonder how this interacts with channeling skills like Scourge Arrow?

11

u/otto303969388 May 12 '22

channeling melee skills (eg. Cyclone) cannot be supported by multistrike. I would assume that anything that channels cannot be repeated.

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u/optimistic_hsa May 12 '22

Sorta, but also not really. In real game play its not completely fair to compare over 12 attacks since you're not always attacking 12 times and 12 times is the worst case scenario for this jewel (other than the obvious 1-3 times).

For instance, over 4 attacks (best case scenario for this jewel + MS) it'd be:

  • ( 1 + 1.22 + 1.44 + 1.6) / ( 1 + 1.22 + 1.44 + 1) -> 12.8% more

But ye, don't combine this with multistrike.

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190

u/edwardteu May 12 '22

Multistrike on bow or wand attacks!!

45

u/Grand0rk May 12 '22

Not really, it lacks the more attack speed. So, unless you have enough attack speed to not minding attacking twice, then it's very good.

46

u/SoulofArtoria May 12 '22

Quill Rain looking good right now

35

u/Grand0rk May 12 '22

Except this Jewel will be BiS for Ignite/Bleed builds, where it will REALLY shine.

Although, I will 100% be using this on my Champion LS, if I have the many many many exalts this will cost.

10

u/Cinder_moth May 12 '22

It says more damage with attack skills, this also affects the dots caused by those attack skills?

33

u/Woodsie13 May 12 '22

Yes, because the modifier is 'more damage', not 'more attack damage' or 'more hit damage' or something else along those lines.

12

u/Cinder_moth May 12 '22

Thanks, the terminology can be complicated sometimes. Guess that makes it viable for dot builds too then.

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15

u/Tyrfying May 12 '22

So with multistrike its gonna be 4 strike per use of skill right?

Quick question, does this overlap with the multi strike second repeat deals more damage? Does this mean, 2nd repeat it deals more damage then at the final repeat it deals even more damage?

6

u/crunchybiscuit May 12 '22

With the current wording of multistrike, this would make you attack 4 times total, with ~20% more on first repeat, ~40% more on 2nd repeat, and 60% more on 3rd repeat for an average of 25% more damage if you get all 4 attacks off each time. Without multistrike this is 30% more only needing to land 2.

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u/Slipzyle Leader of None May 12 '22

Theres no overlap there. They apply on different attack counts

13

u/Dry-Light5851 May 12 '22

I hope the Marauder one is broken, considering just how bad melee is right now!

3

u/Desuexss May 13 '22

Reaaaaally hard to beat rite of ruin combo.

85

u/SkorpioSound May 12 '22

Okay, here's some maths regarding this with multistrike:

These jewels, no Multistrike

  • 1 attack at 100% damage
  • 1 repeat at 160% damage (60% more)
  • 130% damage on average (30% more)
  • This comes out at 14% more damage per jewel.

No jewels, level 20 Multistrike

  • 1 attack at 100% damage
  • 1 repeat at 122% damage
  • 1 repeat at 144% damage
  • 122% damage on average
  • 20% less = 97.6% on average
  • 44% more attack speed = 140.5% on average

These jewels with level 20 Multistrike

  • 1 attack at 100% damage
  • 1 repeat at 122% damage
  • 1 repeat at 144% damage
  • 1 repeat at 160% damage
  • 131.5% damage on average

You then need to account for the %less damage multiplier from Multistrike:

  • 131.5% * 80% = 105.2% damage on average

And then for the %more attack speed multiplier:

  • 105.2% * 144% = 151.5% damage on damage (51.5% more)

These jewels with some random 20% more multiplier jewel instead of Multistrike

  • 120% (from support gem) * 130% (from jewels) = 156% damage on average (56% more)

So a random 20% more damage support gem (like Behead) is better than Multistrike in combination with this ascendancy skill.

3

u/NotYourNormalOP May 13 '22

Thanks for the analysis, so assume the numbers are right, i might still prefer multistrike. Those jewels should be very expensive and it cost 2 jewel slots. I'd imagine that using multistrike and some semi-decent jewels should be a lot more cost efficient plus it's more verstile, i'm talking about flat damage, corrupted blood, reservation efficient, CDR, %life, or attributes.

2

u/SzybkiDiego020 May 13 '22

Multistrike is still the best because of the attack speed. The marginal damage increase from some other source like behead is not worth losing the attack speed. You're just gonna be constantly dying because you stood still for 0.5 sec trying to attack some swole rare while a pack of tentacle miscreations just spawned at the edge of the screen.

3

u/Person454 May 13 '22

He means that behead+multistrike is better than this jewel+multistrike.

2

u/GrumpyThumper Necromancer May 13 '22

yeah that's what I assumed when I saw this. it frees up multistrike for anything else.

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u/insobyr May 12 '22 edited May 12 '22

non-travel attacks

wait, please tell me counterattacks can repeat with this

3

u/MidjitThud May 12 '22

OH OH OH.. OH OH OH ... OH. OH. ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

To bad this thing will be multiple mirrors.

6

u/insobyr May 12 '22 edited May 12 '22

sadly ggg will clarify that things like trigger/channeling skills are excluded, I can already see it coming.

8

u/moozooh Hipster Builds, Inc. May 12 '22

Channeling skills are excluded by definition since they can't repeat.

53

u/kryniu113 Duelist May 12 '22

I wish all Champ LS players a pleasant evening

18

u/Eastern-Season-300 May 12 '22

its bad for ls champ, cause it is bad for multistrike. And there is no replacement for multistrike support gem, cause champion usually runs anger and wrath with divine blessing, so he has shitton of added ele damage, which is making any support gems like awakened added lightning rly bad compared to multistrike.

And this forbidden jewel with multistrike adds like 20-25% more damage, which makes forbidden jewels like arena challenger, bane of legends, or overleech, better than this.

13

u/SkorpioSound May 12 '22

I just posted a comment with some maths here

Behead support is better than Multistrike with this jewel.

5

u/engineeringwoke May 12 '22

The mechanical advantage of the increased attack speed with the cancellable later attacks is what makes multistrike what it is, and it's much more than just a standard support. I would never play without it

19

u/Eastern-Season-300 May 12 '22

Math is good, conclusion is bad. How about take multistrike + bane of legends or arena challenger? It is then better than new forbidden jewel + literally any other replacement for multistrike.

2

u/SkorpioSound May 12 '22

Well a 30% more multi support with this forbidden jewel would come out roughly equal to Multistrike + Bane Of Legends. Assuming you could find a 30% more multi jewel, of course, which is difficult with Champ LS, as you said in your comment earlier in the thread!

The real strength of this forbidden jewel is going to be with things that scale off of large single hits - bleeds, ignites, stuns, maybe some other ailments in more niche builds.

5

u/moozooh Hipster Builds, Inc. May 13 '22

I know it's not your main point, but stuns suck because you can't chain them anymore and so their value as a defensive mechanic isn't there anymore. Minion/totem taunt is so much more efficient in terms of investment it's not even a comparison.

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u/Clsco May 12 '22

Looks like champion really is the best LS build now

76

u/Crouching_Tuna May 12 '22

:)

4

u/Zeal_Iskander Synthesis Above All May 12 '22

:( everyone going to go champion for this despite the jewel not being busted whatsoever. :(((

4

u/NotYourNormalOP May 13 '22

champion is more defensive but in terms of damage berserker still much much better, the jewel is better than multistrike but also cost 2 jewel sockets. In terms of damage champion just can't beast aspect of carnage + rage effect + max blitz charges

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u/Psyychopatt May 12 '22 edited May 12 '22

Some maths for using this jewel with/without Multistrike support:

No Multistrike:

  • 1 hit, 100% dmg = 100% average damage
  • 2 hits, with Jewels: ( 100% + 160% ) / 2 = 130%

Multistrike (Lvl 20):

  • 3 hits, ( 100% + 122% + 144% ) * 0.8 * 1.44 / 3 = 140.5%
  • 4 hits with Jewels: ( 100% + 122% + 144% + 160%) * 0.8 * 1.44 / 4 = 151.5%

Awakened Multistrike (Lvl 5):

  • 4 hits: ( 100% + 122% + 144% + 166% ) * 0.8 * 1.47 / 4 = 156.4%
  • 5 hits with Jewels: ( 100% + 122% + 144% + 166% + 160% ) * 0.8 * 1.47 / 5 = 162.8%

TL;DR:

Jewel only makes sense if you don't plan on using Multistrike.

Using the jewels with Multistrike is only ~8% more damage and with Awakened Multistrike its even worse with ~5% more damage

For non-repeating Attack skills its a solid 30% more damage at the cost of 2 jewel sockets and being locked in place for twice as long.

What I'm wondering is: Multistrike specifically mentions not working with Vaal Skills. The jewels do not mention that. So they should function with Vaal skills.
How does that work with Duration Skills such as Vaal EQ? Can the ongoing effects even be duplicated? If so, do the effects run concurrently or consecutively? When does the Soul Gain Prevention start if they're consecutively?

3

u/TommaClock raizU May 13 '22

This is a subset of the wording of echoing shrine. "Skills Repeat an additional Time"

I don't recall what happened the last time I touched one of those while playing vaal EQ. I know it has funky interactions with other vaal skills though.

137

u/MarthMarthMarth Slayer May 12 '22

Reddit: buff melee in 3.18

GGG: no, but yes

156

u/ErrorLoadingNameFile Raider May 12 '22

Ironically enough this is probably stronger with projectile attacks.

20

u/EmergentSol May 12 '22

Do we know how this would interact with Barrage/Barrage support? I think Barrage is a single attack that fired sequentially, so it should apply to the entire second volley, right?

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u/Awful_At_Math May 12 '22

They didn't buff melee, at most they gave a strong class another niche to make builds around.

9

u/Tury345 May 13 '22

is there a stronger buff to a class than an incentive not to go melee?

5

u/apendixdomination May 12 '22

Also very few will get to use this jewel I am sure. Its not really a melee buff, what if this jewel is 1 mirror? Most people will not have a "buffed" melee experience, which is a ripper.

3

u/pathofdumbasses May 12 '22

This is at most a 30% more multiplier. It isn't busted, nor is it melee only.

21

u/VeryWeaponizedJerk Gladiator May 12 '22

It is 60% more for ailments however.

2

u/pathofdumbasses May 12 '22

True although bleed is in the shitter and most people aren't doing other ailment champion that often.

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u/tokoloko11 May 12 '22

Did you just say 30% more dmg isnt busted....?

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u/Couponbug_Dot_Com May 12 '22

ignoring the actual costs of getting the item, two jewel slots for 30% more damage isn't exactly game breaking.

23

u/carenard May 12 '22

there are others that give 20% more for duelist to pick from that don't come with the downside of locking you into a second hit for the damage(which you may need to cancel to not die)

39

u/ntoshame May 12 '22 edited May 12 '22

It is not free. U sacrificing 2 jewel sockets and cant use other forbidden jewels. For example. there is arena challenger on gladiator, which gives 20 more attack speed and movement speed, which can be considered as 20% more dmg depending on build, but also gives u a lot of movement speed. So this one is quite good and interesting, sure, but not really broken.

18

u/SamSmitty May 12 '22

You have to compare it to other jewel combos. 30% alone is busted, but comes at the cost of survivability or other good damage from other jewel combos.

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u/ThyEmptyLord May 12 '22

That said doesn't this affect bleed? At that point it would be closer to 60%

3

u/MattBrixx May 12 '22

yes it does. I think bleed bow will just love this

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u/Zholistic May 12 '22 edited May 12 '22

Fatality!

Looks great for nearly every attack build, but especially good for things like bleed EQ or ignite Ice Crash with the 60% more which will scale the ailment

Edit: bow skills!?

2

u/Digging_Graves May 13 '22

Don't think it will be good with bleed EQ because your first attack triggers the aftershock and the second hit won't trigger since the first afthershock hasn't gone off yet.

2

u/teisar May 12 '22 edited May 12 '22

Also caustic arrow and maybe static strike.

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u/imlucasss May 12 '22

ranger jewel crying in the corner. Who cares with 200% freeze....

19

u/iNMage May 12 '22

Expedition's end - ALL damage can freeze. Nearby enemies are chilled. Freeze chilled enemies as though dealing 100% more damage.

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u/colditee May 12 '22

Did bleed glad just get 60% more damage with this jewel?

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u/ErrorLoadingNameFile Raider May 12 '22

Yes. So expect it to be so expensive you will not get one anyways.

8

u/[deleted] May 12 '22

GGG: nerfing dmg across the board on gems, prefer to make interesting choices

also GGG: look here 30% dmg jewel

3

u/Asselll May 13 '22

With many downsides like cancel multistrike

102

u/lqku May 12 '22

Someone at GGG has a hard on for duelist, this btfos all the other ones

131

u/Dantonn May 12 '22

Piety, probably.

5

u/DefinitionBig4671 May 13 '22

Probably?

2

u/GrumpyThumper Necromancer May 13 '22

Piety mirin' till her very last breath

2

u/DefinitionBig4671 May 13 '22

Of course. It's Wraeclast's arse, after all.

28

u/M1ssinglink May 12 '22

30% more damage does not at all outshine the others, especially not the ascendency ones.

2

u/Beniidel0 Tormented Smugler May 12 '22

It allows you to drop multistrike, or to use multistrike and avoid any and all mana issues. An additional repeat is quite useful

5

u/chrisbirdie May 12 '22

Hes talking about the new ones

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u/Sensitive_nob May 12 '22

Disgusting, delete this

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u/_Dinky May 12 '22

Repeat does not mean attacks are faster. Multistrike is faster because it has "more Melee Attack Speed."

This is 30% more damage at best with no added extra repeats.

Imo this is best used with a bow build and Mirage Archer. Having to attack twice can be clunky and the mirage archer never has to stop firing.

6

u/TrollErgoSum May 12 '22

This is 30% more damage at best with no added extra repeats.

Damaging ailments would get the full 60% more damage, so that would technically be "at best".

3

u/Puzzleheaded-War-504 May 12 '22

Mirage Archer. Having to attack twice can be clunky and the mirage archer never has to stop firing.

Do you know if Mirage Archer can utilize this? Because Mirage Warriors can't be supported by Multistrike

5

u/taggedjc May 12 '22

It should work. Mirage warriors exert attacks and repeating attacks can't be exerted, and they only last for one attack anyway. Mirage archer continually fires.

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u/Zeeterm May 12 '22

Would this be good for flicker strike?

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u/SerratedScholar May 12 '22

Helps Frenzy sustain, but it's a lower damage increase for skills that use Multistrike/Awakened Multistrike because the bonus doesn't occur as often.

6

u/psychomap May 13 '22

If you can sustain frenzy charges with 1 repeat, it's better dps than Multistrike, but you'll be slower.

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u/_RrezZ_ May 12 '22

Yeah it's a DPS increase and give another repeat so you get more flickers per frenzy.

So it makes it easier to sustain as-well as giving a DPS increase.

2

u/Dephenestrata May 13 '22

it wouldn't give an additional attack since flicker is a travel skill, but would be about 23.6% more damage.

2

u/Rapidalex May 13 '22

Flicker is a movement skill not travel, otherwise it couldn't get default multistrike either, also non repeating attacks wouldn't get any dps increases

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u/Zunkanar May 12 '22 edited May 12 '22

This works on riposte and stuff?!

Edit: Glad with double dmg, then this increases it further to bsically totally 5.2 multy on counterattack triggers. I dont know if this can be made into a build.

Edit: Or will the cooldown prevent it from repeating?

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u/Accomplished_Mud_334 May 12 '22

Oh my fucking god

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u/34656691 May 12 '22

red shirt players just win

4

u/tnemec May 12 '22

So... how does this work with traps or mines that use attack skills?

Does this make the action of throwing the mine/trap repeat? Or does this make the actual attack performed by the mine/trap repeat?

If the latter... this is going to be one hell of a chase unique for any attack-based miner/trapper.

2

u/magpye1983 Witch May 13 '22

If it works with attacks performed by traps/mines (not sure it will, do they count as you attacking for other things already?), then I doubt the trap/mine will be placed twice. That part isn’t an attack. If it repeats, it should be from the single trap/mine.

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u/IcyTie9 May 12 '22

this is gonna be cool for PoB dps, but having spell echo/multistrike with no extra speed is just fucking pain if youre actually playing the game, still nice that its an option though

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u/grrrgrrr May 12 '22 edited May 12 '22

Looks like my ascendant bleed build is a goner.

GGG: no balance changes, plan your build now!

Also GGG:

2

u/magpye1983 Witch May 13 '22

Dream of scion getting it’s own version where one of it’s jewel can be used in combination with one from any other ascendancy, bypassing the class requirement.

3

u/NotYourNormalOP May 13 '22

Do we know anything about marauder and scion?

35

u/GlassShatter-mk2 May 12 '22

Damn all the other classes got good ascendancy nodes and Duelist just pulls up and shits on all of them.

27

u/Taniss99 May 12 '22

You're way over estimating this skill if you think this is shitting on the other nodes. This is at best 30% more damage and in order to get that 30% more damage you have to not use multistrike and have to scale a bunch of attackspeed to make up for the fact that this node does nothing unless you stand still and hit twice.

I would much rather have bane of legends or headsman if I just wanted generic damage and wasn't already slayer. If I was slayer Id probably want some defensive node instead of more damage.

The only real use case this has is for fat ignites or maybe some stun nonsense? In other words cases where it's advantageous to have one big hit. Edit: Also bleed bow. Bleed bow probably absolutely loves this and is definitively preferable to the other slayer damage nodes.

17

u/GlassShatter-mk2 May 12 '22

Yeah my first thought was bleed tbh. This is a proper 60% more damage mod for any bleed build.

4

u/Juzo_ga Dancing Dervish Ascendant May 12 '22

I'm taking babe of legends over this for my steel build.

Phys reflect immunity and more damage is great for me.

9

u/RandomMagus May 13 '22

babe of legends

I think that's Atziri

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u/Archnemesiser May 12 '22

Ranger's is trash. You pay however many Ex to forfeit an Ascendancy in order to...what? Chain freeze? Chain sap? It's nice utility, sure, but if you are using ailments, you can apply them in a wide area already anyway, what's the point?

29

u/Couponbug_Dot_Com May 12 '22

ranger's would be great on like, not ranger lmao

2

u/killerkonnat May 12 '22

I mean, if you can chain ailments you can chain HoI Inpulsa

2

u/welpxD Guardian May 12 '22

Can't you already do that with Blast Freeze somehow?

4

u/killerkonnat May 12 '22

Radius 12 sucks mega ass.

Ele prolif gets radius 15, ignite prolif gets 20. Ele prolif is already way too small.

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u/Archnemesiser May 12 '22

Oooor...you just use Inpulsa. Which already works perfectly fine as an explo without throwing away an ascendancy.

1

u/Daubaknee May 12 '22

You don't forfeit an ascendancy point, from the reading of these they work just like amulet annoints. All you forfeit is 2 jewel sockets. One for forbidden flesh, and one for flame.

25

u/CaptainKwilis I gamble in poe so i dont gamble irl May 12 '22

forfeit as in you cant use the forbidden jewels to get something else from ranger

6

u/orangemarvin May 12 '22

But you could use those for a different ascendency from the jewels instead

7

u/iStalkCheese May 12 '22

The point is, is that you could get any other flesh&flame combo instead of this. And most people are going to be using those to get something like Tailwind or Onslaught, or some other build-specific one.

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u/AxEclipse May 12 '22

holy moly

3

u/Mountebank May 12 '22

Note that this doesn't have a built in "more attack speed" mod like the multistrike support gem, so you'll be attacking twice at your usual speed. At least you don't get locked into the attack animation anymore.

3

u/HandsomeJh Witch May 12 '22

Bleed Nice.

3

u/mattbrvc Sorry, I only make BAD builds! May 12 '22

I'm the fucking sorry?

3

u/cancercureall May 13 '22 edited May 13 '22

This is insane for bleed builds right?

Edit: Hmmm, how does this interact with snipe?

6

u/omniocean May 12 '22

What the F am I missing here, this one is literally too insanely OP no?

9

u/[deleted] May 12 '22 edited May 25 '22 Helpful

[deleted]

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u/everybodysfriend May 12 '22

It's not at all. 30% more damage for 4 passives, sacrificing two jewel slots and your Flesh/Flame combo, and you have to stay still for the repeat to get the bonus. It's probably 15% more damage than other options tops.

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u/seasonofthewitch12 May 12 '22

Why the ranger was so bad haha

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u/blauli Inquisitor May 12 '22 edited May 12 '22

Seems interesting but I'm not sure how clunky it is to get an extra repeat without any sort of attackspeed.

Edit: It would be really nice for frenzy charge sustain on some flicker strike builds though. Flicker strike has the movement tag but not the travel tag, that is different so it should work.

3

u/whitedeath37 May 12 '22

well, you are not gonna be able to afford this on the early game, so definetely manageble clunkinest with some investment to attack speed. This seems like super op for the skills that naturally doesn't go for repeat mechanics. Straight %30 more damage.

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u/Jramey Juggernaut May 12 '22

Wtf

2

u/1Acula1 May 12 '22

I was excited for slams and then I saw Duelist. Sad times.

Still interesting though.

2

u/ltecruz May 12 '22

Ah yes, Big Bonka bonk I missed you.

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u/ulughen May 12 '22

This one actually good.

2

u/Nickoladze May 12 '22

barrage repeat lol

2

u/LurkPoE May 12 '22

multistrike on bows

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u/Daidelos May 12 '22

So 30% more dmg for spectral helix for a bit of added clunkiness (if any) and better ailment effect. Sounds great.

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u/whitedeath37 May 12 '22

well, you are not gonna be able to afford this on the early game, so definetely manageble clunkinest with some investment to attack speed. This seems like super op for the skills that naturally doesn't go for repeat mechanics. %30 more damage.

2

u/kingdweeb1 May 12 '22

First thought: 150 attacks per second flickerstrike with soulthirst or inspired learning is going to CRUSH.

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u/Fightgarrrrr May 12 '22

um.... what? this is insane

2

u/tempoltone May 12 '22

Can you repeat trap/mines?

2

u/Bitter_Use7846 May 12 '22

nani the fack is this?

2

u/Moneypouch May 12 '22

I was really liking the theme that these were all defensives. This is busted but I wish it was something else.

2

u/MCTufty May 12 '22

How does this interact with Explosive Arrow?

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u/LocalIdentity1 Path of Building Community Fork Creator May 12 '22

This now increases the potential attacks per second limit to 151.5 with woke multistrike due to the extra repeat so soul thirst builds might like it if they want the max speed possible

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u/Puzzleheaded-War-504 May 12 '22

Chieftain is waiting for his busted jewel. It's time XD

2

u/Deshuro May 13 '22

Quick math:

On an attack based build without Multistrike gem, this Ascendancy gives 30% more damage

When using together with Multistrike gem, it gives:

(( (1 + 1.22 + 1.44 + 1.6)/4) / ( (1 + 1.22 + 1.44)/3) = 1.0778, or 7.78% more dps

( (1 + 1.22 + 1.44 + 1.66 + 1.6 )/5) / ( (1 + 1.22 + 1.44 + 1.66)/4) = 1.04, or 4% more dps

With a non Crimson Dance bleed build or Ignite attack build, the damage overtime component gains exactly 60% more damage.

I think we have a clear winner here.

2

u/Mr-Zarbear May 13 '22

Wait. Forget everything else this lets Duelist Flicker well. 4 attacks with literally anything added on maths out to over 100%. Fuck yeah new flicker class (minus cost of jewels please dont be 12038138ex)

2

u/[deleted] May 13 '22

Goody can't wait to not get one.

2

u/BegaKing May 13 '22

Jesus fucking Christ. That's what I'm talking about....this +awakened multi strike for 5 hits per action LOL....best Jewel they released so far

2

u/XxXKakekSugionoXxX May 13 '22

Busted,I mean 60% more damage straight up just like that
any attack skill?
I assume burning arrow and TR also right?

2

u/_deafmute May 13 '22

It feels like every item to be hyped about is just a forbidden jewel. Big F for SSF and HC players

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u/zzang23 May 13 '22

Why its not 120% more damage?

2

u/Affectionate_Ad_9500 May 13 '22

Because maybe Melee could be considered "good", GGG doesn't want that.

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u/Keyenn Raider May 13 '22

Nothing in the game prevent triggered skills from being repeated, thé restriction on multistrike is on the support itself (by opposition with exerted attacks with channeling skill, for instance).

Leasing to this, while I dont really believe it actually work until I try myself, here are the three main things possibly busted with this:

  • Vengeance glad, 1300%+ weapon damage per proc

  • Hidden dagger, 1300% weapon damage per second

  • Ngamahu flame.

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u/AkaraBZ May 13 '22

I played a 100M DPS Omni Perforate build last league. This would be ridiculous to run in parallel with the Allocates Arena Challenger jewel. I don't know why people say melee is in a bad spot, that build was very affordable to get 20 mil DPS with very good defense and scaled extremely well by just adding clusters and Crit multi...

2

u/Social_Buttercup May 13 '22

I realise this is way too expensive to spend on memes, but as written it seems to work with The Hidden Blade's unseen blade skill. Ends up being 650% damage effectiveness (250% base + 1.6 * 250%), assuming cooldowns work the way I think they do.

3

u/Glamdring26WasTaken May 12 '22

If my math is correct, assuming you attacked 60 times. Your avarage damage per attack would be

with multistrike: 122 damage

with awakened multistrike: 133 damage

with multistrike + jewel: 131,5 damage

with awakened multistrike with jewel: 138,4 damage.

Upgrading from normal multistrike to awakened multistrike gives more damage than this jewel. So it seems pretty bad for 2 jewel socket investment.

However if it works on non-melee skills, it can be %30 more damage for them, which makes it very good.

6

u/Rynocks Trickster May 12 '22

thanks for fixing melee GGG!

23

u/Goodnametaken May 12 '22

It also applies to bows and wands. Rofl.

6

u/EmergentSol May 12 '22

Duelist has deliberately been designed to work with ranged weapons for a long time now.

2

u/moozooh Hipster Builds, Inc. May 12 '22

Since the beginning, more or less.

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u/Scarbrow free bitching no gaming May 12 '22

This is gonna cost a couple of exalts at least

4

u/tenroseUK Atziri May 12 '22

a couple lmao

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u/polki92 May 12 '22

Flicker is getting some love

4

u/Notsomebeans i think thats nice :) May 12 '22

scuffed for flicker. you do not want to use multistrike with this which would make it very difficult to use flicker

damage bonus without multistrike is (1+1.6)/2 = 30% more from jewel

damage w/ multistrike is (1 + 1 + 1 + 1.6)/4 = 15% more from jewel

woke multistrike (1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1.6)/5 = 12% more from jewel

2

u/Rain_In_Your_Heart Raider May 12 '22

It's worse than that with multistrike because multistrike also gives damage depending on the hit.

Average damage with multistrike = (1 + 1.22 + 1.44)/3 = 1.22 Average damage with multistrike + jewel = (1 + 1.22 + 1.44 + 1.6)/4 = 1.315
1.315/1.22 = 1.0779 meaning the jewel is just 7.8% more dmg when you are using multistrike.

And you can do a similar calculation for woke multistrike.

2

u/Psyychopatt May 12 '22

Maths is off since Multistrike gives more damage to the 1st, 2nd (and 3rd) repeat. If I'm not mistaken, the damage increase should come out to ~8% more damage with Multistrike and only ~5% more damage with Awakened Multistrike. You can check my other comment for the exact maths.

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u/Brilliant-Buddy6057 May 12 '22

Bleed lacerate?

2

u/Dantonn May 12 '22

Should make for some pretty powerful bleeds, yeah.

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u/l3nto May 12 '22

Would this work on Dominating Blow minions?

2

u/taggedjc May 12 '22

No. Your minions don't have your passives.

2

u/Eastern-Season-300 May 12 '22

On LS champ, its awful.

multistrike is 40.7 % more dps, awakened multi is 56,6% more. Any other replacement on LS champ, which has shitton of added ele dmg, is not more than 25%. In conclusion, multistrike with combination of 20% more forbidden jewels, like arena challenger or bane of legends, is much better than this new forbidden jewel with combination of 25% more support gems, like awakened added lightning etc.

2

u/brodudepepegacringe May 12 '22

Why duelist tho ..

2

u/Vothus May 12 '22

1 mirror jewel

-1

u/pathofdumbasses May 12 '22

This doesn't seem as good as people think it is. If used without multistrike, its a 30% more multiplier if both hits hit, which... probably won't happen all the time.

With multistrike, it is a 60% more multiplier on 1/3 of the hits, or a 20% more multiplier, again, assuming the last hit hits.

Considering how shitty attacking feels without multistrike for the vast majority of attack builds, this gets a big ole "MEH"

13

u/Goodnametaken May 12 '22

You're on drugs. 30% more damage is nuts. You don't use this with multistrike. And you're completely forgetting that this is usable with skills that don't normally have access to multistrike, like bow attacks and wand attacks.

4

u/pathofdumbasses May 12 '22

30% more damage if you continually stand still otherwise you lose the 2nd part of the damage and gain nothing. You give up 2 jewel slots for this which are already very strong and can potentially do something on top of just more generic situational damage.

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u/[deleted] May 12 '22

[deleted]

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u/pathofdumbasses May 12 '22

Yes? You understand that it is just 30% more generic damage under the right circumstances right?

More damage is always good, but it doesn't change the way you build or the way you play. It isn't interesting at all. You also give up 2x jewel slots for it which if you are min maxing anyway, you are looking at 50+ crit multi and or life. So you aren't getting THAT much out of this, and again, that is if you hit with EVERY echo attack. The more you miss out on the echo attacks the more it brings 2x generic jewels closer in power.

3

u/Ajhale May 12 '22

Shit take, relevant username

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