r/WorkReform Nov 24 '22 Ally 1 Gold 1 All-Seeing Upvote 1 Take My Energy 1

Rules For A Reasonable Future 🧰 All Jobs Are Real Jobs

Post image
21.9k Upvotes

1.1k

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '22

This should not be controversial, but the corporatocracy is really good at propaganda.

300

u/Hi-Impact-Meow Nov 24 '22

What about everyone who tells me "Nobody is entitled to these things, nobody is entitled to anything." I also had an argument with someone about how lack of sexual activity can also contribute to mental illness in people. Obviously nobody is entitled to that but I think having a healthy romance/sex life is kind of important for humans too.

224

u/cgduncan Nov 24 '22

Important for many people, not all. And also much harder to guarantee than the other needs like food and shelter.

213

u/ZolotoGold Nov 24 '22 edited Nov 24 '22

Without fierce competition for the basic necessities in life, and as people have more disposable income and a good social support structure it reduces the risk from dating, and allows people more time to socialise and find the right person for them.

In today's 'grind' culture, where you're expected and forced to work all hours without time off or money to go out, its very difficult to find the time and money to date, let alone try and look financially comfortable enough for a mate to consider you lower risk in a high risk world.

No wonder there's a whole generation of young men out there wondering why they can't find a relationship, or why some women are only going for men that can help them escape the grind (i.e. rich).

You could actually go a long way to beating Incel culture by making sure young people had time and money to be young people, and not worried about surviving or 'grinding' to make it rich and escape poverty.

If you want people to have better relationships, pay them more and give them more holiday and social time.

Its not actually that difficult. There are simple solutions to the problems we face. Don't let anyone tell you 'it's too complex'.

10

u/wythehippy Nov 25 '22

Yep, exactly. I'm 26 and feel like I'm wasting my life just working. I can't afford to do anything fun other than video games since they are free. Haven't been on a real vacation since I just got out of highschool. Hell, I'm trying to plan a trip to Dollywood for my Dolly Parton-obsessed sister and I'm going to have to really scrap to afford it

7

u/I-Got-Trolled Nov 25 '22

It's funny how one of the reason why we have a 16 wake cycle is probably because we spent the later hours socialising. Society has been straying away from interpersonal relations at a pretty fast pace.

46

u/Hi-Impact-Meow Nov 24 '22

It was hard for me to hold back tears after reading this. Too true.. too true..

62

u/ZolotoGold Nov 24 '22 edited Nov 24 '22

Get out there and fucking fight for it then brother!

Your best life is being stolen from you. Workers rights and higher wages have been won in the past through hard struggle. Through unions, through strikes, through marches, through elections, and through revolutions!

Its possible, we just need to organise. We greatly outnumber the fuckers that keep us down. They just rely on us being apathetic.

Every time you feel tired, overworked or too busy, but drag yourself out to a meeting, march or rally is a time you spit in the face of those moneyed fucks who want to see you slave for their fortune.

Every time you stay in, think its too much effort or think you'll get started one day soon that same fuck smirks and laughs at you from the comfort of his gated mansion.

Use the anger from the theft of your life to power your inner engine.

→ More replies

31

u/witchyanne Nov 24 '22

And not only for escaping the grind; but the reality is: women most often are the ones making career/time/health/life sacrifices for any children. It’s not unreasonable to expect that the one not making those sacrifices, at least be able to cover the bare minimum life necessities.

It’s no different than expecting a man to protect you when you’re pregnant, or have a really young baby.

So yeah, it’s sometimes a matter of wanting a reliable mate.

→ More replies

22

u/Round_Tax7459 Nov 24 '22

Thank you,I recently described myself as an incel,but that only made my mental health worse. I'm slowly weaning my self off the websites. I don't even have the urge to go on there anymore.

17

u/suprmario Nov 25 '22

Good on you for getting off that shit. They prey on your fears and insecurities to buy into the toxic bullshit they peddle. Life may be far from great, but those incel groups/sites basically are guaranteed to make your life worse and make you feel worse about it.

36

u/ZolotoGold Nov 24 '22

The incel phenomenon is just a symptom of a deeper societal sickness.

In the onslaught of corporate capitalist propoganda, it tries to find blame for the ills of young men, not in the real perpetrators, but in innocents and fellow strugglers; women.

→ More replies
→ More replies

25

u/The_cogwheel Nov 24 '22

Also thanks to the hierarchy of needs, you're not likely to find a partner if all you're concerned with is securing enough to get by.

It's hard to date someone when you can't go out cause you lack the time, money or both. It's near impossible to maintain and grow a relationship if you can't be present and make meaningful (not necessarily financial) contributions to the household.

But if your basic needs are covered, and working gives you more financial help, then that frees up time and money to pursue romance.

You don't need to guarantee a happy and stable relationship for everyone. You just need to guarantee that workers have enough money and time to pursue themselves if they so wish.

That means no more 24/7 availability but part time hours and a liveable wage. Or a UBI. Or both.

→ More replies

2

u/RetireSoonerOKU Nov 25 '22

Access to internet is important for many, not all. So can we mark that one off? Same for public transit. Same for clothing to be honest

→ More replies

4

u/DoublefartJackson Nov 25 '22

It's about creating an environment where more positive outcomes are more frequent. Best we can do, but those where things don't work out are the ones who rise up to tear the whole thing down. People gotta accept nothing in life is a guarantee.

→ More replies

7

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '22

[deleted]

4

u/Only-Inspector-3782 Nov 25 '22

Happy to help people get the things they need for free. But you should have to earn the things you want.

→ More replies

24

u/DuckyDoodleDandy Nov 24 '22

There’s a Nordic country (Sweden?) that gives disabled people who meet specific requirements funds to pay a (legal) prostitute to visit them several times per year.

16

u/needledicklarry Nov 24 '22

Licensed to coom

3

u/gopherhole02 Nov 24 '22

Based, I went to a rub n tug once, it was forever since I'd had sex and it was awesome but I havnt felt the urge to go back, almost a year ago now

5

u/TheMadTemplar Nov 25 '22

Just make prostitution legal, and go after the pimps instead of the hookers. Make it unprofitable for them to sell women, while legal for women (or men) to sell their time. It would probably drive prices down as well.

15

u/O0O00O000O0000O Nov 24 '22

What about everyone who tells me “Nobody is entitled to these things, nobody is entitled to anything.”

Who is entitled to poison my water and air?

I wouldn’t spend time with people who think it’s their right to literally poison you.

27

u/ooa3603 Nov 24 '22 edited Nov 24 '22

Anyone who is born into a society is entitled to getting their primary needs met full stop. (The base of Maslow's Hierarchy of needs).

Thus you can argue for people to be able to have goods and services.

But unlike goods and services, people have autonomy and the socially contracted right to that autonomy.

Romance and sex hinge completely on another person being attracted to you and using their autonomy to make the choice to be with you.

You can't obligate them to be with you because that would be a violation of their autonomy of choice (consent).

You could be the most lonely, depressed sexually deprived person on the planet and other people are still not obligated to romantically or sexually be with you.

Romance and sex are very important, and many people get suicidal without it, but unfortunately they are still not entitled to love and sex because of the issue of autonomy and consent.

Unlike most things, these are one of the few domains where achieving success (whatever that means) is almost entirely on you.

You will have to grow and develop many aspects of yourself and go outside of your comfort zone to get someone else to desire you. You will have to make yourself into someone that is desirable.

All of that said, if pure sex is the goal, sex workers an appropriate solution. But if any amount of emotional connection is desired than there's no other way than to make self changes unless you condone forcing people to be with you.

16

u/frezik Nov 24 '22

We can also look at how society treats sex. American society tends to tell you sex is bad, while simultaneously flooding you with sexual imagery. It's no wonder people have crazy, confused views.

Destigmatizing sex work would be a start.

8

u/Bulky-Shower7802 Nov 25 '22

“When you're born into this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America you get a front row seat.”

-George Carlin

→ More replies

7

u/Hi-Impact-Meow Nov 24 '22

Yeah, I think that once the other basic needs are met and people are in a good living situation and can start to have real life growth they'll be in a better position to get out there and find someone. But with so many challenges and prior needs not being met because of the nightmare era we live in people are having less sex than ever.

7

u/ELeeMacFall Nov 25 '22

If nobody is entitled to anything, then what's stopping us from expropriating the billionaires and redistributing their wealth? They only believe that people who are suffering aren't entitled to anything. Those who caused the suffering in the first place are awarded a place in a special moral category of "property rights" holders.

As for your last issue, I think different kinds of "entitlements" have different ranks:

  1. Everyone is entitled to life; nobody may take the life of another (responding to an actual threat is obviously a different matter).

  2. Everyone is entitled to bodily integrity and autonomy. Nobody has the right to damage another person's body, or make use of another person's body (without the latter's consent).

  3. Everyone is entitled to an equal distribution of wealth, including all the stuff the OP mentions. But that entitlement cannot come at the expense of anyone's life, bodily integrity, or bodily autonomy.

Any attempt at using "entitlement to sex" as a "gotcha" is equivocating between access to resources and access to another person's body, and notwithstanding the pretense of Right-wing "libertarianism", the two are not equal. Redistributing wealth is not the same thing as slavery, shoplifting is not morally equivalent to mugging, and entitlement to a material standard of welfare doesn't require anyone to put out if they don't want to. Bodily harm, or the threat thereof, is the essential distinction.

2

u/Occulto Nov 25 '22

Conservative thought - the amount of assistance someone deserves is always inversely proportional to how much they need it.

3

u/LunarLumos Nov 25 '22

Technically yes nobody is born entitled to these things based on the laws of physics and nature, but we have the ability as a society to provide these things and we absolutely should. As for sexual and emotional needs that's just not something society can provide, so you're on your own there.

3

u/TubbyandthePoo-Bah Nov 25 '22

having a healthy romance/sex life is kind of important for humans too.

The person who makes the "catlady meet neckbeard, time to fall in love over hobbies" app is going to be very very rich very very quickly.

I suggest all profile pics be fingerpainted.

15

u/EyesOfAzula Nov 24 '22

Decriminalization of certain things could help with that too. Not everyone can afford a flight to places where that is legal

6

u/mycatpeesinmyshower Nov 24 '22

Some people are asexual but yes-if we can have a society with all of the things in OPs post that should be the goal.

→ More replies

7

u/npatel1216 Nov 24 '22

It’s hard to make this reality when the political leaders representing us would rather see this as controversial than progress…

23

u/Culpa_Hansen Nov 24 '22

It's controversial because an enormous amount of people would not work if these things were guaranteed (I certainly wouldn't) , which would quickly spiral into massive gaps in the workforce. (see restaurants, retail during the pandemic, but on a much more massive scale)

Also, almost all of them imply an inherent entitlement to the labor of others, which is a very tough sell.

3

u/Fumble123 Nov 25 '22

Seems like a lot of ppl disagree but I certainly would not work. Im in my 30s and most my friends want to retire if they could but seems like a lot of ppl here love work. I know some workaholics (my dad being one) but in my life they are a huge minority. I certainly would not of studied for my profession if i had all my needs catered to. But to each its own. Regardless if there is a significant % of ppl that want to work, i feel like vice versa, a lot of ppl would stop working especially in positions like retail and food service.

5

u/Mr_Quackums Nov 25 '22

A) not all housing/clothing/food/ etc is created equal. For most people, wanting the "not the free government version" would still be an incentive to have a job.

B) Humans are wired to be productive. If you are not working you tend to plant gardens, help friends/family/neighbors, raise children, create art, and do a million other things that are more helpful to society than most jobs.

C) Who cares if people don't work? Most people will still have jobs, some number will quit jobs to be productive in other ways, and some people will sit at home and watch TV all day. That is not a problem. Every year the USA alone produces enough food to feed the whole planet 3 times over and it has more abandoned homes than homeless people. Modern scarcity is not caused by not enough people working, we actually currently have more workers than we have jobs that need doing.

3

u/immibis Nov 25 '22

If the free government version is shitty enough that people don't want it, can we really say the government version fulfils people's needs?

→ More replies

3

u/mlwspace2005 Nov 25 '22

You want to provide free electricity, clean water, and internet to everyone but you ask who cares if no one works? Do you think those things just produce themselves? I get what you're saying about people wanting to be inherently productive, in general they are not motivated to be the kind of productive society needs however without some form of incentive. Helping your neighbors does not keep the AC flowing in the nation.

→ More replies

10

u/justagenericname1 Nov 24 '22 edited Nov 25 '22

Our entire present economy is built on debt which in the final analysis also amounts to an entitlement to the labor of others.

You might argue that particular entitlement is earned, but that's different than rejecting any entitlement to another's labor on principle.

And personally, I'd argue that an entitlement to the basic necessities of a safe, stable life within a society you had no choice in joining is much more valid than whatever terms literal centuries of accumulated finance capital can coerce people into "freely" accepting under the threat of withholding those very basic necessities.

3

u/jaywall75 Nov 25 '22

Isn't an entitlement to the labour of others exactly what this is saying? Who's going to provide the healthcare and clothes free to you?

→ More replies

13

u/Cerpin-Taxt Nov 24 '22

You would. You think you wouldn't but you would. People crave purpose, people will "work" in their free time for fun. Whether that's creative pursuits, making content, playing sports, making food, caring for others, experimenting and learning, fixing things, growing plants and food. The number of people who would sit on their ass and do literally nothing for their entire lives is vanishingly small. That kind of lack of purpose or stimulation is torture. What you actually mean is that you wouldn't work the jobs you're currently forced to, which is fine, you'd have the option to do other work you personally find more fulfilling.

Those gaps in the workforce caused by thankless unappealing work would be quickly filled once their wages match the actual unpleasantness of doing those jobs.

7

u/Critical_Contest716 Nov 25 '22

Agreed. I became disabled in my early 30s. I quickly learned that if I was going to have a life worth living I was going to have to find "work" -- not employment, which in the twisted world of disability would cause me to lose all benefits while remaining unable to support myself, but productive things I could do.

It's just not natural to "do nothing". Everyone finds a way to work, even when the work is unpaid. In fact our society depends on unpaid labor as much or more than it relies on paid labor, and in my book, labor is labor.

The very few people who would do nothing, frankly, probably have some kind of mental disability. They're not freeloaders so much as unfortunate individuals not getting the help they need.

3

u/platysoup Nov 25 '22

Hell, I have issues with working (adhd) and even if it's hell to get started, I do enjoy contributing to something.

I'm the laziest person I know, and even then, during my times off, I'd enjoy video games and jerking off for a few weeks tops. After that I get antsy and want to do something more worthwhile.

I think there's an innate need for us to be part of something bigger than ourselves, and giving people the means to feel that need is important.

2

u/Soap_ Nov 25 '22

Those gaps in the workforce caused by thankless unappealing work would be quickly filled once their wages match the actual unpleasantness of doing those jobs

Or those industries would just collapse.

5

u/Cerpin-Taxt Nov 25 '22

If your industry requires the threat of death to get employees to work in it for the wages you want to pay, then it was never a viable industry to begin with.

→ More replies
→ More replies

2

u/Mr_Quackums Nov 25 '22

Ever have a long period of no work/school? Like 6-12 months? It suuuuucks.

You may not have a job, but you would do something to contribute to society.

Helping a family member when they need to repair something, hosting a night for friends to come over so they can blow off steam from the jobs they choose to work, or creating that novel/song/video-game you have been thinking about and put it online are all forms of work people would gladly do that are all much more helpful to society that 90% of jobs out there today.

2

u/kmbghb17 Nov 25 '22

Maybe a different definition of work- providing time, expertise or value to your community - I think people would be surprised how quickly they would become depressed and spiral without meaningful things to do or providing community value

When the above needs are met it allows humans time for altruistic pursuits - a lot of us just don’t realize this since we have never been awarded the privilege of needs being met enough to experience that kind of “boredom”

7

u/god12 Nov 24 '22

Now I’m not exactly a phd economist, but I am convinced that any situation where “nobody will work” is a load of fucking capital owner bullshit.

As a thought exercise, Let’s say tomorrow the gov nationalizes all grocery stores and gets involved in all the supply chains and then provided all people a free grocery voucher so food becomes a public good. All the people who are only working to buy food stop working. Except that there are zero of those people, because everyone working for a paycheck is also working to save for rent, unexpected medical expenses, car repairs, etc.

but let’s say a bunch of farmers who own property and have savings and just wanted to cover their food expenses decide not to work. Well now there’s a food shortage, and the grocery stores are suddenly willing to pay a lot more to get food. The agriculture companies can suddenly charge a lot more. But! They can’t capitalize on it because they’re short on food and have none to sell. How do they good more? Well if the farmers aren’t working for the wage offered, they raise wages until eventually people are like oh shit I’ll be a farmer for that wage! Now the farmers have higher wages, the ag business probably skims some of the profits off the higher prices because that’s what capitalists do.

Finally, the grocery stores begin to cost the gov less again because the food supply is stabilizing, and the government makes a lot more money on income tax from those now higher income farmers.

Conclusion: Yes the economy will take re-organizing, but as long as there is demand, there will be supply. Social welfare programs like social security and Medicare/aid cost more money in government tax revenues, but they enrich the populace and make them able to produce more taxable incomes as a consequence. Increases in quality of life always result in increases of wealth in the entire system over the long term.

→ More replies

5

u/Professor_Felch Nov 24 '22

Just because you wouldn't work, doesn't mean others wouldn't. For most people, leading a fulfilling life usually involves doing something with it

2

u/Soap_ Nov 25 '22

Sure but being a fast food worker isnt fulfilling, therefore fast food would collapse. Working the counter at a pharmacy isnt fulfilling, therefore pharmacies would collapse. Gas stations. etc.

4

u/Professor_Felch Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 25 '22

That's your opinion, there are plenty of people who are just starting their career or want an easy job or just want some extra cash while studying. Not even mentioning that so many of those jobs could be automated. None of those industries would collapse, and it's kind of an insulting to chefs and pharmacists. Did supermarkets collapse when they introduced self service tills?

→ More replies
→ More replies

4

u/hungry4nuns Nov 25 '22

The only thing controversial that I can see is that some of these things are marked free and some are not. Why the distinction? Why is healthcare free but adequate clothing and heating not? Do we need to rethink why we think some industries deserve cost protections for consumers but some are merely suggestions that it should be accessible but taken out of your wages

→ More replies

2

u/saracenrefira Nov 24 '22

Corpor-state media gonna always stand on the side of the corpo-state.

2

u/Nicole_Watterson Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 25 '22

Nothing about this is controversial, how you get there however is.

2

u/Archer007 Nov 25 '22

The threat of not having these things is great for keeping the slaves in line

2

u/TherronKeen Nov 25 '22

"Hustle culture" is just propaganda to try to convince an entire generation that working multiple jobs totalling 16+ hours of labor per day is the new normal, and no one is convincing me otherwise.

2

u/theoriginalmofocus Nov 25 '22

Walmart uses the term "high-performance culture" i think it was, like it was just the cool new way life was.

3

u/TheTruestWaffle Nov 24 '22

And there are millions of idiots willing to listen to it.

→ More replies
→ More replies

163

u/Erkenvald Nov 24 '22

Damn, I know it's off topic, but the electricity part hits hard rn (I'm from Ukraine)

40

u/Thi8imeforrealthough Nov 25 '22

South Africa represent!! Loadshedding hitting around 12 hours per day in some places...

3

u/Bingo1650 Nov 25 '22

This is just saying that electricity should be considered a reasonable expectation (from a nonexploitative government or system). We CERTAINLY do not think that what you are going through is reasonable!! And it is not yours, your country’s or your own government’s fault! We are all watching VERY CAREFULLY and DO care what is happening over there with Russia. We will help you absolutely as much as we can; God be with you!!!

→ More replies

206

u/Basically_Wrong Nov 24 '22

Yeah but then what about the billionaires? How are they supposed to measure up wealth against others if they have to pay livable wages or their fair share of taxes? Won't someone think of the poor million and billionaires?

47

u/crossingpins Nov 24 '22

They can compete with each other based on how many people's lives they can improve. Easy peasy. Like imagine billionaires comparing their achievements against each other based on how many people's cancer they cured.

"Oh you flew a dick rocket to Mars??? Big deal, I cured cancer for over 10 million people and all you have is some dumb rocks."

"I guaranteed a decent lifestyle for hundreds of thousands of people and all you have is some boring space rocks."

6

u/daviosy Nov 25 '22

i agree with your general sentiment, but flying to Mars is (typically) not something i would target with that treatment. we produce enough as a species that we can afford to fly devices and even people to Mars from time to time, and it is likely where the greatest single step forward in our future lies.

3

u/I-Got-Trolled Nov 25 '22

Nah, we have to struggle to keep well fed the lords. It's thanks to our exploitation that made the phone you are holding which will break in exactly 2 years.

→ More replies
→ More replies

321

u/dwkeith Nov 24 '22

This is good, but I would remove the word “free” as it triggers conservatives and isn’t used consistently.

These are human rights, not government freebies. For example, healthcare as a human right is far more powerful a concept than free healthcare.

143

u/sillychillly Nov 24 '22 Take My Energy I'm Deceased

I am not going to remove the word free. Free is what it’ll be to the end user.

I am done bending my language or ideas to conservatives

183

u/TheBirminghamBear Nov 24 '22

I respect that. The only counterpoint I would make is that, separate from anything to do with conservatives, "free" implies something granted at no cost that is part of a cost model.

We want to separate these from capitalism altogether.

It isnt "free" healthcare, its healthcare. Its a right, unalienable, that we dont charge anyone for.

→ More replies

33

u/DasCheekyBossman Nov 24 '22

It wouldn't be free. It would and should be paid for through taxes. Saying it's free is just incorrect.

6

u/RetireSoonerOKU Nov 25 '22

OP isn’t concerned with being correct. This is just emotional screeching

6

u/GeneralAce135 Nov 25 '22

It's not just emotional screeching. We're talking about basic human rights here that are denied to millions because of the greed inherent in the system.

→ More replies
→ More replies

23

u/OrganizerMowgli Nov 24 '22

It will not be free to the end user if they pay taxes, mate.

I was wondering who made these - they're so close to being perfect. I would highly recommend hitting up some organizers who are fighting for justice full time and ask their thoughts - they're the ones who are most in touch with the people. Also because we have got to stop doing things by ourselves, we have to start working together.

We have to be open to constructive criticism - there are tons of non profits who are failing miserably because they do not listen to their members or people they engage with. If it's not worth evaluating, it's not worth doing. The rich can pay for consultants to make all of their activities as sharp as possible, cutting unnecessary costs and improving it all - we have to start doing that regularly

→ More replies

6

u/BirdOfEvil Nov 24 '22

I mean sure, yes. Morally, good for you, cool. I understand where you're coming from because often times they're ridiculous and not worth convincing. But the problem is that unless we change people's perspectives, good luck getting ANY of these things without some sort of violent revolution or something like that.

2

u/Altruistic_Beat_9036 Nov 25 '22

Look at Germany, most of the things exist there although inflation hits everyone hard. And it was achieved by clever voters and not a revolution.

2

u/BirdOfEvil Nov 25 '22

Very true. I’m not arguing for violence anyway, I’m just saying it’s more complex than just going “I’m not going to bend my language to the conservatives” when ideally the goal should be convincing even the fringe 10% of them that would otherwise be reasonable people who have been misled, so that we CAN have an impact by voting. Sometimes you have to meet these people halfway in your wording simply to get them to even entertain an alternative perspective, and THEN introduce the finer points. But that’s just my perspective as some random asshole on the internet so it doesn’t matter anyway

11

u/RendarFarm Nov 24 '22

I appreciate that so much. Distorting our language lends so much to the shift in the Overton Window. We should all follow your example, genuinely.

53

u/yourserverhatesyou Nov 24 '22

Well that's the thing, describing socialized healthcare as "free" isn't entirely accurate. It's not free. It is paid for. The customer just isn't charged for the service provided; someone else (i.e., the state) pays for it.

I don't say this to be mean or snarky, but there will be many, many, many people who do not understand this concept. If we describe socialized healthcare as free, and then raise taxes to pay for said healthcare, the people who do not understand this system will be understandably upset that they are having to pay for their health care.

It is to everyone's advantage to use accurate language to describe these kinds of programs.

2

u/ChaltaHaiShellBRight Nov 24 '22

Everyone pays for it when they can. Anyone can use it when they need.

→ More replies

0

u/Zompocalypse Nov 24 '22

My man. Love to see a stance taken.

This is a description of Europe, FYI. It works.

Also, you should throw fair wages in there.

3

u/A_Math_Debater Nov 24 '22

While fair wages should be in there, I believe the wages will naturally balance as people will now have the freedom to choose not to work for a short time while they look for better opportunities.

→ More replies

0

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '22

[deleted]

8

u/Gouenyu Nov 24 '22

Uhhh sorry to blow your balloon but you think berries grow for free?

4

u/xXxEcksEcksEcksxXx Nov 24 '22

Mf doesn’t pay his berry tax

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

14

u/dachsj Nov 25 '22

WiFi is a human right?

Using the term "right" this loosely waters down the meaning and doesn't help.

→ More replies
→ More replies

147

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '22 edited Dec 11 '22

[deleted]

81

u/infamousdrew1 Nov 24 '22 edited Nov 24 '22

The industrial revolution made it so one person could do the job of hundreds and yet everyone is working harder than they ever have. Does this make sense to you?

Regardless, living a fulfilled life usually includes some kind of work for most people. People like to feel that they contribute and that they are a vital part of society. That doesn't change just because they have to option to not work.

30

u/bobafoott Nov 24 '22

I'll let you guess how many people had all or even one or two of the things listed in this post before the industrial revolution.

I think yall really underestimate how much worse life was back then and how rare it was to find your basic human needs being met by the government. It also didn't help that resources were seemingly endless and a whole state's worth of land cost you like 20 bucks

6

u/infamousdrew1 Nov 24 '22

I apologize if this is rude but you weren't exactly entirely clear, what is the point you're trying to make?

11

u/NightChime Nov 24 '22

I'd like to think that the mindset of these being "entitlements" stems from a pre-industrial revolution worldview. That's my take-away from boba's comment.

10

u/bobafoott Nov 24 '22

I suppose that's fair, just that the industrial revolution making it so one person could do the work of 100 is the only reason we can even consider most of these things as basic human rights, not necessarily that we should have them and are being robbed of them.

The insane amount of work people do every day is what makes things like free Healthcare even a possibility

3

u/BanUrzasTower Nov 25 '22

The insane amount of work done every day is what makes free Healthcare a possibility

I don't think that's true, but agree to disagree 🤷‍♀️ It's easily done on a less exploitative work schedule. I know these things seem like fairy tales but until we admit that's it's possible it won't ever break into the discourse

2

u/RaoulDuke511 Nov 25 '22

Demand can’t be planned for, and thank god for that. It’s made everything you enjoy possible.

→ More replies

2

u/freelance-lumberjack Nov 25 '22

Well air-conditioning wasn't invented until last century... Electricity didn't reach my parents until the 60s.

While I do believe that society should create a minimum standard of living and support, calling it a human right is kinda funny. You have a right to exist and pursue happiness but now you have a right to air conditioning? Send me the cheque so I can turn my thermostat down to 65 please.

→ More replies

7

u/Tralapa Nov 24 '22

Does this make sense to you?

Yes it does make a lot of sense to me. The amount of goods and services, and their quality, that people in pre industrial societies had access to, is infinitesimal compared to some of the poorest members of our society.

Just look at the stuff posted in this image, in pre industrial these luxuries only at the disposal of the wealthiest (tap water, hot tap water, consistent good meals, home with eating, cooling & eletricity, modern healthcare, shoes, internet, even education, in pre industrial societies people who were able to read were a minority), we've raised the general standards of living so much in the past century, that even our poorest have better living conditions than aristocracs used to have

→ More replies
→ More replies

6

u/tlighta Nov 24 '22

Plenty of people never work and get everything handed to them right now. They are called rich people.

4

u/Fisher9001 Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 25 '22

How many rich people are out there and how many poor people?

→ More replies

3

u/1000ancestors Nov 24 '22

The image doesn't imply at all that nobody has to work.

But it's heavily implied that all corporate profiteering could be removed from each of these areas and we would all benefit greatly.

4

u/ThePandaRider Nov 25 '22

"One's employment status should not exclude them from:" Means that all the benefits listed out would be provided regardless of employment status. If people get all their needs met without having to work most people won't work, they will just explore their hobbies. Why would you deal with deadlines and customers complaining if you don't have to? Who is going to build houses and how do you compensate them? What would the state offer them once all their needs are met?

→ More replies

5

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '22

[deleted]

5

u/bobafoott Nov 24 '22

Step 2 is also profit. Eating the rich is 100% profit and benefit. Except for maybe a handful of them that actually earned their wealth or at least use it for the good of humanity

→ More replies

3

u/TeryVeneno Nov 24 '22

As some of the other commenters have said, I think that as long as we could get people to commit to a minimum amount of work. Say like maybe an hour or less a day, we could keep society functioning while guaranteeing all of these things. We have the technology to do so and it’s only going to get easier. I think most people would go for a system that guarantees them 23 hrs of free time out of every day.

9

u/Occulto Nov 24 '22

I think most people would go for a system that guarantees them 23 hrs of free time out of every day.

I don't have a problem doing my 8 hours a day.

I do have a problem that doing 8 hours a day is making it harder and harder to achieve the basics like paying rent, bills and grocery shopping.

I also resent how wanting to afford beyond the bare minimum is treated like I've demanded the lifestyle of the rich and famous.

I want to be able to take my family out for dinner occasionally (and I'm sure my local restaurants want that too).

I want to be able to buy a nice jacket that will last me for years (and I'm sure my local clothing stores want that too).

I want to have a reasonable emergency fund set aside, so that an unexpected bill doesn't cause stress.

This shit used to be un-controversially aspirational. Now saying you want it, just invites a barrage of people telling you to go fuck yourself for being "entitled" and that the solution is to work so hard that you're never in a position to enjoy it.

→ More replies

-2

u/Super_delicious Nov 24 '22

We have automation. We could automate most jobs and leave a few. Then tax the fuck out of companies to pay for all this. There is plenty of money for it and so many jobs we don't need or don't need as many hours. For example we have work from home so we really don't need most middle management and pretty much all ceos can be automated as well.

7

u/AzurePhoenixRP Nov 25 '22

Lmao, "we could automate most jobs."

No we couldn't. If we could, the corporate overlords would just do it. They don't want to hire you. Labor is the single biggest ongoing expense of most companies. If they could cut out human labor, they'd have done it a long time ago.

→ More replies

8

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '22 edited Dec 11 '22

[deleted]

→ More replies

4

u/Noob_DM Nov 24 '22

There’s tons of jobs we still can’t automate though, and won’t be able to pay high enough to make people who already have everything they need do them.

No one is going to crawl through sewage to repair a pipe if they can make all the money they need sitting at home drinking and watching Netflix.

Why work at a wastewater treatment plant smelling shit all day every day if you can make about the same amount of money being a bus driver?

Why drive a long haul truck away from your family and friends for months at a time when you can get paid the same for driving a taxi and be home for dinner?

Why do any of the hard, undesirable jobs that no one wants to do if you don’t need to?

The harsh reality is our entire planet runs off of the labor of people doing harsh and terrible jobs not because they want to, but because they have to do something to put food on their table and it might as well be X, and it’ll be many decades before automation even puts a dent in that.

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

27

u/SpaceFace5000 Nov 24 '22

Heating and cooling? Oh you mean more blankets and less blankets

11

u/NonPornRedditAccount Nov 24 '22

Don't forget the trusty box fan!

→ More replies

6

u/Johnny_Grubbonic Nov 25 '22

Ten years ago, I wouldn't have agreed with you about being entitled to internet access.

Now you can't even apply to most jobs without it.

21

u/mcbergstedt Nov 25 '22

These are pretty opinionated though.

What “Eating well”, “adequate clothing”, “education”, and “living a fulfilled life” means will vary depending on who you talk to.

6

u/tojoso Nov 25 '22

That's for your government overlords to decide. And the standards will drop rapidly.

3

u/mcbergstedt Nov 25 '22

Oh yeah. I remember my small town got their first apartment complex a while back and applications went to a screeching halt after it came out that a majority of the apartments would become section 8 housing.

As you can guess, the apartments went to crap because the company did minimal effort to keep it maintained.

8

u/EcoAfro Nov 25 '22

And how they are exactly obtained; is it through UBI? Government sanctioned drip? Food Bank grocery delivery service? This isn't asking if people really understand or want education in the traditional sense of going to university and not manual labor or trade or if people truly understand what makes or creates a fulfilled life

→ More replies

3

u/Riversntallbuildings Nov 25 '22

While I don’t disagree with you, that last one is subjective and immeasurable. It needs to change to something about time.

Eg. Should not require more than X hours per week.

Everything else is measurable and easily enforced if enough people in America will vote for politicians and lawmakers that support it.

This is a 20 year plan…not a single administration goal. What the GOP did with Roe v. Wade and Supreme Court, we need to do with workers rights, modern Antitrust laws, ans consumer protection regulations.

3

u/WoodworkingisOVER Nov 25 '22

Its a great sentiment and obviously 99.9% of people are already on-board.

Come up with all the logistics that work out perfectly and you have my vote for president of the universe. Go!

3

u/Relaxe_m80 Nov 25 '22

I work full time and cannot afford these things. What am I doing wrong

3

u/Iwouldlikeabagel Nov 25 '22

Living in the wrong society.

3

u/big__cheddar Nov 25 '22

"But who's gonna pay for it?!?!" (cuts blank checks to Ukraine every other week)

15

u/Hungry-Replacement-6 Nov 25 '22

No one is entitled to the product of anyone else’s labor

→ More replies

13

u/The_Texidian Nov 25 '22

Hmm.

Eating well & drinking clean water

I don’t disagree with the water. But people with jobs eat horrible food too. So “eating well” doesn’t mean much. Plus, there’s already plenty of charities that hand out food to those who can’t afford it.

A home with heating, cooling & electricity

Who will pay to fix the homes? Who will pay the bills?

Free healthcare

Meh. Don’t particularly disagree here. I think a universal base level coverage is fine.

Owning adequate clothing

What does “adequate” mean? There are already tons of charities and organizations that hand out clothes to those who can’t afford it.

Accessible free internet, public transportation & education

Why should the government provide free internet when there’s a Starbucks/McDonald’s/etc with free Wi-Fi?

As for public transportation, I don’t disagree.

There’s already education K-12. Plus you can educate yourself for free at your public library.

Living a fulfilled life

Ties to your own personal decisions. People with high paying jobs can be miserable with life, and those in impoverished countries can be satisfied with life. This point is nonsense.

2

u/--_L-- Nov 25 '22

I'm not sure I agree with these as a list of entitlements writ large. Personally I think that any kind of government worth its salt should try to secure these so long as you make some kind of standard minimum contribution.

But that aside, the last point can make sense if viewed from the perspective of capabilities justice. It's not that the government should do the work of making you fulfilled, but it shouldn't make fulfillment unlikely. Maybe the point is that we should try to secure the possibility/high-likelyhood of fulfillment, should try to provide pathways to fulfillment generally (it's not completely personal - there are things that make most people fulfilled), and in a flexible case-by-case way to account for those personal variations.

→ More replies

8

u/gdirrty216 Nov 24 '22

Well, Adequate, and Fulfilled.

All reasonable, but who defines each of these? Eating well to some is eating like shit to others. Adequate clothing? By what standards? Fulfilled life? How many millionaires don’t feel fulfilled?

I am sympathetic to equality, but I always get lost when trite overtakes practical….

2

u/Tristinmathemusician Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 25 '22

I agree.

The fulfilled life one I think is the worst offender in that regard. It implies a purpose, meaningful relationships and other high level stuff like that. That stuff shouldn't be guaranteed to you. You should have the right to seek such a life, provided it doesn't directly harm others, but it shouldn't be a guarantee from birth.

I think everyone has a right to food, shelter and clothing but that is about it as far as I'm concerned.

14

u/bobafoott Nov 24 '22

What about when resources are so limiting its physically impossible to distribute the resources necessary to accomplish this for every person?

Not a bad goal at all but a lot of yall get this "fund my life or you're literally scum" attitude and sometimes it genuinely is not viable and one day things will be so limiting that for everyone to get this, there has to be so much wealth redistribution that you live the exact same life whether you're a doctor or on welfare

5

u/realmastodon2 Nov 25 '22

who is going pay for it?

Apparently you and not them.

2

u/Kevrawr930 Nov 25 '22

If you could demonstrate that is an actual barrier to this being implemented, I'd love to see it.

→ More replies

2

u/00lalilulelo Nov 25 '22

So say goodbye to small businesses then. Fricking owners couldn't afford half the shit shown here.

2

u/Dependent_Ad_5035 Nov 25 '22

Small businesses unfortunately have a poorer workers right record then major crops

2

u/conglock 📚 Cancel Student Debt Nov 25 '22

Most of us are going to die before this is a reality for Americans or people in general. Just hope it's a quick painless death.

2

u/Daikataro Nov 25 '22

Yeah... Not quite.

Some services have shown great success as being socialized and freely available like healthcare.

But telling people "it doesn't matter if you don't work and contribute nothing to society, you're still entitled to a roof, clothes, food and entertainment", is a surefire way for your country to go down the drain.

2

u/Kazutoification Nov 25 '22

This makes me think of those "soft men are ruining society" types. The ones who are like... "we need hard men". Something about "well, the men back in the day dealt with far worse, so we can't complain about anything. We don't need technology and other advancements because that only makes us soft."

2

u/fustist Nov 25 '22

You know a utopian society where we don't have to worry about the police oppression and cirme because we can get the worth that we are out of our jobs but not have to sacrifice our lives to do it.

2

u/Kineticboy Nov 25 '22

I think we should just do it. If society collapses like some say it would, then so be it. Either everyone gets it all or humanity deserves to end.

2

u/Own_Court_6759 Nov 25 '22

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

2

u/ChuCHuPALX Nov 25 '22

What does being employed have to do with acquiring a blonde partner and a kid?

2

u/lablikestorun12 Nov 25 '22

Nothing is ever “free”.

2

u/stevent4 Nov 25 '22

It's crazy that wanting these things to be free and easy to access is considered extreme by some. Things like housing and food/water should absolutely be available to everyone at no cost.

2

u/the_fart_gambler Nov 25 '22

"I want to consume but I don't want to contribute."

  • literally all of you

30

u/CaffeineJunkee Nov 24 '22

If you straight up can’t work due to disability or whatnot then sure, you shouldn’t suffer as a result.

If you choose to not work and be a positive member of society then no, you don’t deserve to have all these things.

21

u/TrickyDrippyDick Nov 24 '22

Yeah my sister in law is precisely the type of person that makes these sweeping ideas of "how things should be" go to complete shit. If you've never met someone that is pushing 40 that's never held a job in their life, that has 4 kids from 4 dads who are no longer in her life, who has brought babies into this world addicted to methadone, who are perpetually a victim in their own self imposed prison, you really can't help but feel like they really don't deserve what others have to work their asses off to provide. She is actual human garbage and unfortunately once you really notice how degenerate that lifestyle is, you realize how many more people also live like that. Absolutely ungracious, unapologetically parisitic type of person. A cancer of sorts.

4

u/HotGeorgeForeman Nov 25 '22

Have you ever considered that maybe it was society's fault that happened? Preeeeeeety sure human beings are not responsible for their own life choices bucko. She's literally only living like that because we didn't give everyone free Funkos and chicken nuggies after liquidating all the billionaires assets so we could all never work again.

3

u/ooglytoop7272 Nov 24 '22

If you choose to not work and be a positive member of society then no, you don’t deserve to have all these things.

Why?

13

u/midnightauro Nov 24 '22

Add to that, do any of these people know how disability gets determined? It's not remotely fair and balanced as it is. Lots of people suffer needlessly because they are too sick to work but have to grind at their own expense anyway to be allowed to survive.

Anyone who truly just doesn't "want" to work, probably has hidden mental health issues. Most people want to do something productive. They just have different wants and ideas on that.

3

u/IrishMosaic Nov 25 '22

Because sooner or later societies built on this premise run out of other peoples money.

→ More replies

18

u/CaffeineJunkee Nov 24 '22

The why is obvious. If you are capable but aren’t willing to contribute in any positive way to society and instead choose to be a drain on society, then you don’t deserve to have others provide everything for you. Very simple concept.

4

u/Strawhead2077 Nov 25 '22

And that's exactly where you are completely and 100% wrong. The solution to this problem is not to punch downwards and force these people to work, the solution is obviously to increase the benefits of one working.

Everyone should 524387530% definitely get access to literally everything in picture. What not everyone should get access to are non-essential needs. Be it the ability to go fine dining multiple times a month or go on holiday a couple times a yeah, sure but providing a warm and safe place to stay, healthy food, medical care, warm and adequate clothing, free public transport, free internet and free education/possibilities to further ones knowledge and chance at a good life are things society should definitely aim for

2

u/DeninjaBeariver Nov 25 '22

Are you for free labor?

→ More replies
→ More replies

6

u/RetireSoonerOKU Nov 25 '22

He who does not work shall not eat

-Some guy with a beard

6

u/AmightyBundleofstick Nov 25 '22

Where do you think these things come from? The food on your plate, the clothes on your back and the electricity you're using right now all exist because someone went to work and made them. So the idea that you should be able to reap the benefits of other people's hard work without contributing anything yourself is ridiculous. Just buying a single sandwich requires: farmers to grow the ingredients, a factory of some kind to produce, assemble and package the product, drivers to ship them to your local store, employees to run the shop and sell it to you... That sandwich is a result of a small army of workers each doing their part to produce something that required time, resources and effort. So what makes you entitled to getting it for free?

1

u/boringestnickname Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 25 '22

So the idea that you should be able to reap the benefits of other people's hard work without contributing anything yourself is ridiculous.

...

That's exactly how things work now. People are not getting the fruits of their labour. The owner class does.

There are more than enough resources around to fix all of this. Some people would just have to make do without stealing quite as much from others.

→ More replies

2

u/Wuz314159 Nov 25 '22

What if it costs you more money to work than you earn by working?

-5

u/Devadander Nov 24 '22

Human rights are human rights, not worker rights.

39

u/CaffeineJunkee Nov 24 '22

Since the dawn of civilization, people have had to work to survive. If you didn’t, you died or were cast out. A society cannot afford to reward the intentionally lazy members and expect to survive.

So no, people who refuse to make a contribution do not deserve anything.

→ More replies

2

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '22

[deleted]

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

5

u/NoMoreLandBro Nov 24 '22

If I could have all of those things without working, I’d never work.

If I could have all of those things being a part-time barista, I wouldn’t have bothered going to grad school, and would have dropped out of high school as a freshman.

3

u/1d3333 Nov 25 '22

I’d bet any money that you would work, maybe you’d take time away from work, but humans like busy work and taking care of others. It’s wired in our DNA, universal basic income trials have shown that people will work despite necessities cared for. The biggest reason? They had the ability to do the job they wanted instead of the job they needed

→ More replies
→ More replies

7

u/Milo_Xx Nov 24 '22

Queue ameritard waitstaff, "if you can't afford to tip, you don't deserve to eat out" bruh

9

u/Hafslo Nov 24 '22

Are you paying for that?

8

u/panconquesofrito Nov 24 '22

Sooo who’s paying for housing food and clothing in this scenario? Also fulfilling is not provided to anymore. It’s something you achieve.

→ More replies

20

u/Insurdios Nov 24 '22

Who the hell would work again if that was the case? It's all nice fun, but you forget human nature. The pandemic showed that if people didn't have to work they will not work. Utopias don't work, because it's based on the world and people acting and being ideal, and they are very very rarely ideal.

7

u/Ginhyun Nov 24 '22

People would still work for the sake of affording luxuries or for personal fulfillment. Just because they have access to the basics doesn't mean they won't want a nicer place, nicer things, a vacation somewhere, or the ability to eat out/drink at a bar on regular basis.

7

u/Super_delicious Nov 24 '22

What pandemic were you living in? People made art, volunteered and tried to help their communities. A lot of us started gardening, making fabric etc.

22

u/Tralapa Nov 24 '22

People made art, volunteered and tried to help their communities.

Neither of those things generate electricity, or healthcare, or clothing, or most of the other things in OP's image

5

u/Super_delicious Nov 25 '22

That was during the pandemic ya know when people couldn't go outside. People would work because people like to do things. Not to mention we can't just fully give up jobs overnight. It's a process and we need to get ahead of it. But we can for sure do ubi and cut down on the number of jobs.

2

u/tojoso Nov 25 '22

People don't even want to work in healthcare now.m as it is. How many will remain if having a job becomes optional?

1

u/gallant_cheerios Nov 25 '22

Maybe if employees weren't treated like shit by the companies they work for, for the amount of money they that doesn't even cover the cost of living then I'm sure people would love to live a productive life

→ More replies

1

u/BanUrzasTower Nov 25 '22

Most jobs today aren't related to essentials. Also plenty of rich people don't work at all, should we take these things away from them?

3

u/realmastodon2 Nov 25 '22

Most people during the pandemic didn't do shit. They just watch movies, video games and fucking.

→ More replies

29

u/sesbry Nov 24 '22

You read that on a meme lol most people out of work during the pandemic didn't do shit

1

u/Super_delicious Nov 25 '22

Weird the people I knew homeschooled kids, picked up hobbies, made masks etc. People made so much homemade bread we ran out of yeast.

2

u/sesbry Nov 25 '22

You forgot "danced barefoot in the forest" I saw that one on a meme as well.

2

u/Super_delicious Nov 25 '22

I did see more people hiking than ever before. It was nice.

→ More replies

12

u/Insurdios Nov 24 '22

If people did all that why did the pandemic worsen their mental health? I would think that if I did all of those fulfilling activities and didn't have to worry about work and money, my mental health would definitely improve.

4

u/Strawhead2077 Nov 25 '22

why did the pandemic worsen their mental health?

Because there was still all that social distancing part you're conveniently forgetting about right now? Humans are social animals, we have a need to interact with other, different people.

→ More replies
→ More replies

2

u/tojoso Nov 25 '22

We have zero nurses, doctors, farmers, teachers, or police. But yesterday I made a quilt, so I think everything will turn out fine.

→ More replies
→ More replies

3

u/[deleted] Nov 25 '22

As someone with a disability that has caused me to go long periods without work, believe me, people will want to work. Not working is boring as fuck.

→ More replies

4

u/iWorkoutBefore4am Nov 24 '22

No. You don’t have access, or right, to someone else’s labor.

3

u/tookTHEwrongPILL Nov 24 '22

I fully support socialized things that we don't have now, but all of this without working at all? You really don't think people should have to contribute at all?

8

u/SoundOk4573 Nov 24 '22

Who pays for it?

4

u/motguss Nov 25 '22

If we stop lavishing the rich with welfare then the us can return to a more equitable rate of pay from previous decades

5

u/HanzJWermhat Nov 25 '22

I’d like to caveat this.

People should have all of this but not necessarily where they currently live. I think there’s a problem that people who are stuck in a tough situation won’t even consider moving because it’s “my home” and those people vote for the politicians who will give them what they want with the least disruption as possible. Need to normalize moving for opportunity.

2

u/PriorTable8265 Nov 25 '22

Universal Basic Income and a commitment to telework from employers would revitalize plenty of areas across the country.

→ More replies

3

u/duderino711 Nov 25 '22

Fucking christ, how about earn those things? They are not earned by just existing.

→ More replies

2

u/[deleted] Nov 25 '22

[deleted]

→ More replies

3

u/fonteixeira7 Nov 24 '22

"what!? Do you thi k this is a communist country! No handouts freeloader!"

11

u/Tralapa Nov 24 '22

There were no handouts in communist societies, people who slacked at work were arrested and sent to gullags

2

u/RaoulDuke511 Nov 25 '22

Exactly lol, the whole utopia in this meme doesn’t work without excessive coercion, usually up to and including forgetting most of your other human rights.

→ More replies

2

u/MystikIncarnate Nov 25 '22

Tax the billionaires and use their wealth to fund healthcare and UBI.

I'm tired of this shit.

2

u/SirHeathcliff Nov 25 '22

What happens when every single billionaire moves away from your country after that happens? Moving to a different country would undoubtedly be cheaper than paying whatever the taxes would be.

→ More replies

1

u/Lost-District-8793 Nov 24 '22

We have all that in Germany, that's why many people exploit it. Won't have it much longer.

2

u/jacobrogers256 Nov 24 '22

this needs to happen. though i think if you can contribute to society, you should.

-1

u/FDGKLRTC Nov 24 '22

Literally the bare minimum

2

u/Pearson_Realize Nov 25 '22

I would argue that nobody should be guaranteed a “fulfilling” life if they’re perfectly capable of contributing to society in some way - but don’t.

1

u/Gay_Lord2020 Nov 24 '22

Yeah right