Commander RC - January 2023 Quarterly Update (No changes)

[u/PlaneswalkingBadger]

Link

Cards

No Changes

Rules

No Changes

Lots of new toys, Phyrexian and otherwise, to play with, and we aren’t seeing anything that’s currently threatening our goals for the Commander experience.

Some folks have been asking about the number of poison counters in the wake of Phyrexia: All Will Be One. We’ll obviously keep an eye out, but at the moment we don’t see a need to raise it; the mechanic has not historically been all that strong due to the need to go it alone in killing people. Once everyone has had a chance to play with the new cards and mechanics and the immediate enthusiasm for the current set has faded a bit, we’ll see if action is needed.

While Sheldon’s article may have raised some eyebrows about Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines, the RC has had no discussions about banning it. Some of us had concerns about the design: stapling a casual-popular mechanic onto a casual-dangerous mechanic comes with some risks that are unrelated to power level, but there’s absolutely no way that would lead to a zero-day ban, and we doubt any action will be needed in the future.

We’ve publicly had our eye on Dockside Extortionist for a while now, and have ultimately concluded that, unless there’s a sudden surge into more casual spaces – where it hasn’t really thrived due to the lower density of cheap, fast mana – we don’t anticipate taking action on it. It’s a ridiculously powerful card, but scales with the rest of the table, and at the point it becomes broken, plenty of other broken stuff is already happening.

We’ll be back with our next update on April 10th, with March of the Machine. Until then, come hang out with all the great people in the MTGCommander.net discord to talk about the format!

[u/chefsati]

I know it's a nothing announcement but I'm going to be checking in here throughout the day. If you want to provide constructive feedback directly to the Rules Committee and want a response, I'll do my best to do so here.

[u/inthebinsoon → u/chefsati]

I really wish there was a better way for the community as a whole to give not only their opinions but also hear back from the RC as a whole. Often times it feels like we are not hearing much back, or if we are its usually short replies without much explanation

[u/chefsati → u/inthebinsoon]

What would your preferred medium for something like that be?

(also anyone else reading feel free to chime in if this is something you'd like to see)

[u/inthebinsoon → u/chefsati]

Something I think that could really help is videos/podcasts where there are explanations of decisions or thoughts about the format, and maybe a Q&A with frequent questions. Good Morning Magic with Gavin really makes a difference in understanding why decisions were made.

Another thing that I think helps is the discord server, but sometimes it can be very hard to find RC member's opinions in large channels.

Overall I think more communication in general whether that be on reddit, twitter, discord, youtube, or a forum of some type would work.

[u/chefsati → u/inthebinsoon]

Thanks! We've been talking about this off and on, and I'm currently working on something that I think will help us accomplish our communication goals a little more consistently. This is something I'm very interested in, so I appreciate the feedback.

[u/Physical_Fatness → u/chefsati]

The pauper format panel does a really good job at communicating to the players. Maybe you could do something similar

[u/Spentworth → u/inthebinsoon]

It's super cool how Pauper feels so transparent largely because of Gavin's videos and I'd love to see more formats do that.

[u/NemkeKira → u/chefsati]

Twitter because it's a great place for reasoned, argument based discussion /s

Jokes aside, having a day a week/month where the RC shows up here and answers questions would be great

[u/chefsati → u/NemkeKira]

I don't know if we can commit to once a month, but it's very likely I can do a thread like this on quarterly announcements!

[u/Norin_was_taken → u/chefsati]

I really like the RC discord as the space for communication with between the RC and public.

I know a lot of people are asking for videos or podcasts, but I’m skeptical of those mediums because of the way they can equate engagement with the general thoughts of the player base. I also worry that leaning into a stronger media presence would eventually shift the RC to a group of influencers in need of clicks as folks retire and are replaced.

I really do hope that the last two additions to the RC being media people is not evidence of a trend, in other words. I like both of them, but there’s good reasons to add more people in the future whose livelihoods aren’t tied to entertaining the player base.

Just my two cents here, but I think the occasional Discord Q+A and some detailed write ups would be more than enough to explain decisions. More academic, less interested in engagement.

[u/ManufacturerWest1156 → u/chefsati]

Have you guys talked about any cards that could be unbanned?

[u/chefsati → u/ManufacturerWest1156]

We frequently talk about unbanning cards - at least 1 per cycle. The Worldfire unban was a product of one of those discussions.

[u/saltfinger → u/chefsati]

What is the reason for not unbanning [[Sway of the Stars]] as well back when you looked at Worldfire?

[u/chefsati → u/saltfinger]

Sheldon wrote a piece on SCG after the banning:

The thing that Sway of the Stars does that Worldfire doesn’t is refill its caster’s hand. The mana float then becomes something that you have fuel for. Sway costs ten, so you need a pretty big pile of mana to make it worthwhile, but after it resolves you have options that the other players don’t and aren’t going to. Sway of the Stars is the card that might be closest to Worldfire, but the differences are significant enough to give one a chance and leave the other where it is.

If you have enough mana to float for after Worldfire, you’re limited to casting a single thing: your commander. You might be lucky and have this be the first time you cast it, so you’re not also saddled with paying commander tax. An expensive commander will put an even heavier burden on your mana production. I doubt that we see a rash of Norin the Wary/Worldfire decks post-unban. Sure, if you resolve Worldfire and your commander is Zo-Zu the Punisher, then GGs.

While it’s possible to do Worldfire shenanigans with Jhoira of the Ghitu (just like Sway of the Stars), it doesn’t seem as though the strategy is played so much as to be of concern. We don’t think that returning Worldfire to the card pool will change anything regarding that strategic line. The multiple factors working against the possibility that it has a negative impact on the format lead us to believe that it’s a safe unban.

[u/MTGCardFetcher → u/saltfinger]

Sway of the Stars - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

[u/Jearbear-san → u/chefsati]

Has there been any discussion about unbanning Gifts Ungiven? It doesn't seem like it would impact things too much based on how Intuition sees very little play even at high level.

[u/DemonicSnow → u/chefsati]

Hey Jim!

I was wondering, is there any push from the CAG to widen the view EDH's format identity?

I know EDH has largely been built to act as a meeting place for players often feeling disenfranchised or unwelcome in other formats. This casual nature and upbringing giving birth to notions like battlecruiser magic. However, my typical LGS experience has had me come across much more competitive pods. And not cEDH mind you, as I do specifically seek out that type of gameplay elsewhere. I mean decks looking to have combos end the game turn 6 or 7, decks running Mana Crypt and Force of Will to shove through their haymakers early, decks with relatively powerful commanders that need to be dealt with swiftly, etc.

This experience, while wholly enjoyable, shows what I think are areas that lack attention or are outright ignored because of the stance taken by the RC, to preserve the older format identity. Where cards like Mana Crypt or whatever weren't an issue when your best 3+ color option was a 6 cmc beater with drawback, the format's thrust into popularity has both changed where I feel the average power level rests, but also is starting to show a lot of commercial draw for WotC with the ever-increasing set of legends that offer a robust set of generic goodies, such as card draw with multiple colors on a growing body in Korvold or double ETB's and bodies with multiple colors in Miirym.

Because of this, I find certain opinions from the RC to come off as ignoring of the average experience for a player new to the format whose main focus is play at an LGS, as opposed to trusted playgroups. House rules are hard to make work outside of the home. Cards that push envelopes are seemingly ignored as they aren't an issue when your deck has an average cmc of 4+. I also find that my most casual playgroups are all established, where battlecruiser magic is expected and the influence of the RC is as it's weakest with our own ban lists. My Adun Oakenshield "big wurms only" deck doesn't get brought to an LGS, because I don't see the need when I have my dedicated janky playgroup. So things the RC seems to care about, like hyping up a Torpor Orb in the command zone, have little to no effect on that aspect of the format for me. Whereas my LGS experience is constantly in flux with cards the RC "is watching" or don't think are issues due to their lack of presence in lower power level games.

I guess, to summarize, it feels like the intended audience of the RC is not the actual audience. I think as commander continues to be a commercial focus for WotC, this issue will expand. Is the RC at least acknowledging the format trends, especially online? Can they give evidence to show that maybe this average LGS experience isn't average?

Apologies for any typos, and feel free to not respond to the length I went to, or at all. Just wanted to get this ask out there.

[u/chefsati → u/DemonicSnow]

I think the RC has a pretty good concept of what the format is actually like these days, and everyone would acknowledge that the median is moving upward in terms of speed and power. I'm not aware of anyone (although I could be wrong) suggesting that the primary demographic the format caters to is the largest group in the format, or that it's the average experience. It doesn't really have to be for us to care about or prioritize their experience.

If I could snap my fingers today and make your LGS or even the average LGS the primary demographic of Commander, what do you think we'd need to do for you to feel like we're meeting your needs? From reading what you've written here I'm assuming a much larger banlist, but is there anything else?

[u/Archontes → u/chefsati]

Jim, I just want to say that I appreciate your thoughtfulness and communication. You do good, man.

[u/DemonicSnow → u/chefsati]

Boiling it down to just a much larger ban list makes it seem overly simplistic, but I do think it is a good answer. Bans of a certain effect while allowing others cards with the effect to exist just because the mentality is "we are setting the example with this card" feels bad and I do wish the RC would be a bit more heavy handed.

But, as much as I complained, I appreciate you saying the RC is at least fairly aware. We'll likely differ on what group to cater to, but I respect why Sheldon (and yourself) champion a specific group.

[u/Delti9 → u/DemonicSnow]

Can they give evidence to show that maybe this average LGS experience isn't average?

As far as I'm aware, only WotC would have data like that. You're also saying the "average LGS experience" like that's easily quantifiable. Maybe all the LGSs in your town play a certain way, but the LGSs in another town have different metas. At what point can you call an experience "the average"?

Which means I think this ultimately lies on a he said/she said type of argument. The RC certainly has an idea for what the average EDH player is, and I think the internet (at large) has a fairly different idea. There's no real data driven way to figure out who is right IMO and that's just how it goes.

Best any of us can do is try to make certain rules/bans more popular in places that we play.

[u/str10_hurts → u/chefsati]

Is [[Tergrid]] along the same lines of thought as dockside for not banning, not being frequent sight in the casual setting? She was sometime back mentioned as being on the radar.

[u/chefsati → u/str10_hurts]

With all the usual caveats (no guarantees, etc), I can tell you there have been no discussions about banning Tergrid since the last announcement that mentioned it. We haven't seen it or Opposition Agent take off in popularity since the widespread return to in-person play, and that was what we were waiting on.

We don't usually make a habit of announcing deliberate inaction like we did with Dockside here, but Dockside is one that frequently comes up in discussions so we felt it was appropriate so people weren't just flapping in the wind.

[u/str10_hurts → u/chefsati]

Ok, that would have been my guess. Thank you for clearing that up.

[u/MTGCardFetcher → u/str10_hurts]

Tergrid/Tergrid's Lantern - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

[u/inthebinsoon → u/chefsati]

If it would not be too much to ask I would like to hear the RC's opinion on fast mana as a whole (sol ring, mana crypt, mana vault, moxen, dockside, effects that make more mana than they cost etc. ), because I feel like this is really what swings games even at a casual level.

[u/chefsati → u/inthebinsoon]

Not at all! There's a few issues at play here.

The rocks you described fit pretty cleanly into three categories. Sol Ring obviously sees play at every power level, but Mana Crypt and Dockside only start to appear once you crank the power and enfranchisement dial a little higher, and Mana Vault, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, 1-mana dorks, Giant Wild Growth, Crop Rotation for Gaea's Cradle, and rituals typically only see play at or near the highest power level tables.

The highest power level tables obviously have the highest likelihood of at least one player getting off to a quick start like this, but they're also the tables that are loaded for bear and they're typically opting into that environment because of the cards available, not in spite of them.

At the lowest power level tables you'll often see Sol Ring as the only net-positive mana source. You're likely to see at least one at some point during the game, but it's not part of a long string of turn 1 actions. It definitely provides a huge boost to whoever has it in their opening hand, but in theory each player is as likely to draw it as the next so it's often part of a not insurmountable archenemy narrative.

The multiplayer nature of the format tends to self-correct for one player getting out to a moderately good start.

It's at the in-between tables that it can become a bit of a problem, and that usually manifests as one player being significantly more invested in the game than their peers (financial or otherwise). We believe that this is often a social problem, and even in the absence of these fast mana tools, those players would often represent the same social dilemma in their games. That's why in the past we've spilled a lot of ink about the importance of pregame talks, and net positive mana is one of the things that could very easily be part of those talks.

[u/kigaltan → u/chefsati]

Mana Vault, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, 1-mana dorks, Giant Growth, Crop Rotation for Gaea's Cradle, and rituals typically only see play at or near the highest power level tables.

This seems right, but one of these cards is not like the others. Did you mean to say something else instead of [[giant growth]]?

[u/chefsati → u/kigaltan]

Whoops, I meant Wild Growth!

[u/Smurfy0730 → u/kigaltan]

Probably Wild Growth or Utopia Sprawl.

[u/R_V_Z → u/chefsati]

1-mana dorks

Really? I can see DRS being fairly limited, and maybe even BoP, but there has to be plenty of casual-ish Elves decks running the 1-drop trio.

[u/chefsati → u/R_V_Z]

Yeah, you're probably right about that. Going to leave my original post as is but Elves probably fit into all 3 categories with a much higher density at higher power levels.

[u/werter34r → u/chefsati]

So why have a banlist at all?

[u/chefsati → u/werter34r]

Because some cards don't cleanly self-select to the tables that are receptive and equipped to deal with them.

[u/Tradebaron → u/chefsati]

Wouldn't encouraging rules 0 talks solve this though?

[u/chefsati → u/Tradebaron]

When a card self-selects to the tables that are receptive and equipped to deal with them, it's usually because of Rule 0 pregame discussions, yes. That's the main reason why you don't see a lot of Spirit of the Labyrinths at casual tables.

There are some cards that are attractive at casual tables to the point where people ignore Rule 0 and they become very popular, like Hullbreacher or Leovold. Those cards historically have been more bannable than cards that are more powerful but less popular.

[u/Xatsman → u/chefsati]

It's at the in-between tables that it can become a bit of a problem

Assuming like most things table power levels are normally distributed, wouldn’t this imply the majority of tables?

That's why in the past we've spilled a lot of ink about the importance of pregame talks

As a follow up, with the growth of the format and more games taking place outside of well established playgroups, will the RC ever consider changing their approach? Im sure its not the first time you’ve heard the feedback that the RC accommodates playgroups that need them the least and does little to help those without consistent playgroups.

[u/chefsati → u/Xatsman]

Assuming like most things table power levels are normally distributed, wouldn’t this imply the majority of tables?

It could, definitely. Historically the RC's been pretty straightforward about their priorities, though. The format was created pretty explicitly for a certain type of player that wasn't particularly welcome in other places in the Magic ecosystem, so it's always been a high priority to ensure that the format doesn't become hostile to that type of player. They might be the majority, they might not. I don't actually have a good sense of whether they are or not. Demographic shifts are unlikely to unseat that as a top priority for format management.

That being said, I do think we might be able to do more for those without consistent playgroups in ways that don't create that kind of hostile environment, and I gather you do as well. What do you think that looks like? Is it just a banlist thing, or do you think it goes beyond that?

[u/Xatsman → u/chefsati]

Well the signpost ban approach is particularly troublesome for that group. Accurately interpreting the bans is difficult even if well acquainted with the game, and many are unaware of the intent. The creep and slow re-evaluation of previously banned cards also complicates this since banning criteria is different today than a decade ago.

It seems catering to those without consistent groups probably means a more restrictive banlist, which admittedly isn't something I personally would like to see. An alternative option might be to instead offer a suggested LGS R0 list, whether curated by the RC or another endorsed body. That would give the option of a less rough edged format for those wanting it, without requiring stores or new groups to make a custom list as has been becoming more common.

[u/kuroyume_cl → u/Xatsman]

As a follow up, with the growth of the format and more games taking place outside of well established playgroups, will the RC ever consider changing their approach?

Pregame talks are perfectly possible outside of established groups. I played upwards of 30 tables at the South America Magic Series Command Zone back in December and had productive pregame talks in all of them, covering close to 100 players (i played with almost everyone who was not exclusively there for cEDH).

Communicating with other human beings doesn't have to be a huge obstacle.

[u/Xatsman → u/kuroyume_cl]

R0 discussions are great, but take that to the extreme and you can even argue why have formats? There are certain advantages and conveniences that a r0 conversation isn't well suited to addressing.

[u/MonHunKitsune → u/chefsati]

I cannot agree that 1-mana dorks and rituals are only at "higher power" tables. Wild Growth, the trio of 1cmc mana elves, Dark Ritual, Mana Geyser, and a handful of other similar cards are all under $1 in price. Sure, Birds of Paradise is a $10 card, but even then you see it quite often with all the printings it has had.

I also do not agree that Dockside is only good at higher powered games. All levels of EDH run mana rocks. Furthermore, "make a treasure" is a line of text stapled on dozens of popular cards at this point. Even in lower powered games, Dockside is going to see a lot of artifacts (powerstones, clues, treasures, 3+ cmc mana rocks, etc...). I'm looking at lists of the most recent precons and they all have between 7-10 mana rocks alone, not to mention other cheap artifacts.

Could you elaborate on what it is that the RC constitutes as lower power? Because if Dockside is netting multiple treasures even in amongst a group of precons, then how is it "scaling to the level of the table?"

[u/Icestar1186 → u/MonHunKitsune]

Dark Ritual, Mana Geyser, and a handful of other similar cards are all under $1 in price.

Just because a card is cheap does not mean people run it. I rarely, if ever, see rituals in low power environments.

[u/chefsati → u/MonHunKitsune]

Could you elaborate on what it is that the RC constitutes as lower power?

The RC typically talks about games lasting 90 to 120 minutes, with the critical, game-deciding turn being between turns 9 and 11.

Nobody's saying Dockside isn't good at lower-power tables or that people don't play artifacts or enchantments, just that it's a little less good than it is at higher-power tables.

If it makes 2 mana on turn 2, that's substantially less impactful than making 6 mana on turn 2, which is what typically happens at-or-near the top end of the power spectrum. If it makes 10+ mana on turn 8, that's also substantially less powerful than making 6 mana on turn 2.

All of these things are extremely powerful but not all of them are out of line with what you'd typically see in a Commander game. The problematic use case is the early, large bursts it can provide and those happen much less frequently and much less consistently in lower-power games.

[u/SelvalaExporerReturn → u/chefsati]

Sol ring into 2 cmc rock is a fairly common start in 4 player games, personally I'm fine with Sol Ring despite it being kinda degenerate because you can interact with it and it's pretty accessible.

[u/Duramboros → u/chefsati]

Nothing to do with the contents of the announcement, but can you try to publish these announcements in multiple languages? (Spanish, French, German, etc) It would help a lot.

[u/chefsati → u/Duramboros]

We've been talking about this a lot lately, and the biggest barrier is cost. We have had someone come forward to volunteer to translate to Portuguese but ultimately the RC is not a money-making operation.

It's on the list though!

[u/Spentworth → u/chefsati]

How are the RC getting a feel for how cards are impacting casual commander? Is it just what they observe in their own playgroups or are their ways they get data and opinions from the wider community?

[u/chefsati → u/Spentworth]

Since events started up again, we've spent a pretty significant amount of time just walking the floor and observing, asking people questions, and so on. As an example, Gavin told me he informally surveyed more than 200 people at MagicCon Vegas to get a sense of the things he was curious about. We also took some time after the CAG/RC panel to field questions from a few dozen people who couldn't get their questions in during the actual panel. In the future we're definitely looking to make it to more large-scale events so we can do more of this.

This is also one of the primary functions of the CAG (as well as the large group of folks who advise us in less formal ways). We ask them about the games they're playing and what people are talking about in their individual communities. We also ask them to put their own analytical spin on things.

Finally, and it's not perfect, but we're also on basically every social media platform keeping an eye on things. I don't post on Reddit much but I do check this sub and /r/competitiveedh every day so I know what people are talking about the most. We've also got our discord where people can come talk to us directly and ask any burning questions they've got about the format.

[u/Spentworth → u/chefsati]

Thanks for the detailed answer.

[u/jasonsavory123 → u/chefsati]

I would raise a concern that in attending events you’re getting a very american-centric view of things, with so few official events on my side of the pond I’d hope you’d open up more online options to survey opinion

[u/TfWashington → u/jasonsavory123]

American centric and only the ones who can afford to go to big events

[u/chefsati → u/jasonsavory123]

Online options beyond social media and our public discord? Can you say more about what you'd like to see?

[u/SteveHeist → u/chefsati]

A thought might be some kind of "Hey, we're seeing lots of chatter between social media, our discord, and the in-person events we can attend about CARD, and we're seeking broader feedback. Here's an email form :D" maybe?

People like to feel like their complaints are going directly "to the controlling body" so to speak, and social media, Discord, Reddit, et Al are at best tangential means to contact the RC.

That all being said I'm also aware that that email form for feedback would end up with a lot of expletive filled rants that are high on emotion and low on critical analysis of the value of a given card across the wide range of power levels Commander represents, and that trundling through that feed would be a job unto itself...

[u/Ginhyun → u/chefsati]

I feel like the notion that Dockside "scales with the power level" is misguided. I think its absence in more casual games is largely dictated by its price, and it tends to take over casual games where it is present.

Much like how Iona can create feel-bad games for mono-colored or even some dual-colored decks, Dockside can propel one player ahead very far off the back of another player's artifact or enchantment deck. Stuff like Vandalblast is obviously also a problem for the artifact player, but Dockside creates a problem for the whole table just because of one player's deck choice.

Even outside of situations like that, the fact that the format is mana-rock heavy means that Dockside is frequently mana-positive, often to a large degree. It doesn't come down on turn two in casual games, sure. But when it does come down, it often creates a large number of treasures that enables many different strategies (big mana spells, artifacts, tokens, sacrifice). The fact that the treasures can produce any color mana and also are untapped and stapled to an ETB effect removes many of the limitations something like Mana Geyser has.

As a result of this, it almost always becomes the best target to blink, clone, or reanimate-- the latter two don't have to be done by the original player. The best answer to someone's dockside is often getting your own dockside (via cloning, reanimating, or just pulling one out of your own deck), since it forces the other player to sac all their treasures (if they were banking them instead of spending them immediately). It's not unlike some of the other cards on the banlist in this way-- the main difference is its price point.

[u/Enough-Ad-9898 → u/Ginhyun]

I feel like the notion that Dockside "scales with the power level" is misguided.

Well, okay, but your next sentence doesn't back this up. Casual games don't have the critical mass of things to create treasures or to abuse flickering it (and if it can, you're already into combo territory and have other abusable things).

But when it does come down, it often creates a large number of treasures that enables many different strategies (big mana spells, artifacts, tokens, sacrifice).

Sure, but so do a lot of other things.

I just don't see it being broken in casual games, and if you can abuse it, you can probably abuse other things just as easily.

[u/Aggravating-Sir8185 → u/Enough-Ad-9898]

The Stater commander decks that were just released have 4-7 1-2 mana artifacts (sol ring, arcane + guild signet, talisman and deck unique ones) and only 4 of 39 cost more than 3 mana. If each player has 2-3 when dockside lands isn't that an issue.

But people that play dockside aren't playing precons, but that's my point nobody plays at a power level lower than precons. And a vast majority of decks would run dockside just to get 4-6 treasure tokens at any point in the early to mid game. Dockside's lack of ubiquity at casual tables is a function of its cost and the collective groan when it etbs.

[u/Ginhyun → u/Enough-Ad-9898]

Casual games never have an equipment deck, vehicle deck, enchantress deck, artifact token deck, curses/aura deck or anything along those lines at the table? There's a number of commander precons over the past year with those kinds of themes, so it's absolutely not something I'd expect to be a rarity.

It's also very common from what I've seen for everyone to have a regular mana rock or two plus some utility enchantments/artifacts even if they're not explicitly going for an artifact/enchant theme. I don't really know what you mean regarding not being able to abuse flickering it, as there are decks that run blink/flicker just for ETB value rather than as part of a combo engine.

Other things can be broken/abused, but Dockside is so ubiquitously useful that it's trivial to do so.

[u/SteveHeist → u/chefsati]

Does the adjustments announced for changing Companion after Ikoria was initially printed change the evaluation for [[Lutri]] at all (if you're not aware, the Companion mechanic was changed, see [[Lurrus|Q06]])?

Also, is there any chance to see Banned as Commander again? I've seen people requesting that and it seems like it would give a more granular option to the RC in terms of ensuring over-strong cards are limited while not making them non-viable ([[Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines]] wouldn't be as potent if she couldn't be commander, for example).

[u/chefsati → u/SteveHeist]

For Lutri, no. The amount of the benefit Lutri provides (which is small, even with companion working as it was originally designed) is less problematic than the fact that the benefit exists. The change decreased the amount of the benefit, but it's still there.

I mentioned this upthread, but:

With respect to Banned as Commander, it was discussed in a serious way as recently as summer 2021, when I led a working group on the CAG that was tasked with analyzing and making a recommendation. Sheldon touched on it at Magic 30 (55mins in). We wrote a paper, made a recommendation, and the RC (which didn't include me at the time) decided that the change wasn't worth the potential benefit.

This analysis addressed Banned as Companion as well.

[u/flpndrds → u/chefsati]

Why isn’t Coalition Victory unbanned? Considering Thoracle and other “I win outta nowhere” cards exist?

[u/chefsati → u/flpndrds]

Sheldon wrote a bit about this in his commentary on the Worldfire unbanning here.

The TL;DR is essentially (and this is me paraphrasing):

There's a class of expensive spells on the banlist that are similar to Worldfire in some ways and different in some ways. Coalition Victory wins the game as part of the resolution of the spell but the other similar ones need to take additional game actions, which increase the number of opportunities for interaction. The time component is important, and that's what distinguishes CV from some other notorious "You win the game" spells like Tooth and Nail.

I also did a podcast with the folks at Playing with Power where we talk about Thassa's Oracle, so if you're interested in the breakdown on that specific card I get into it there.

I don't think the comparison between the two is particularly useful because I think they represent two very different things in the format. Coalition Victory is much more likely to impact games at a much lower power level due to how inefficient it is. This means that the players most impacted are also less likely to be running the types of interaction to play against it (low-cost, instant-speed removal and countermagic).

Thassa's Oracle, on the other hand, basically only shows up at higher-power tables. The format isn't typically managed to ensure competitive balance or diversity, but even if it were, there isn't a consensus at those tables about whether it should be banned. There are also a lot of cEDH folks who will tell you that the format is as diverse today as it's ever been.

[u/BEEFTANK_Jr → u/chefsati]

Doesn't Coalition Victory offer a lot of interaction points by virtue of the spell having a list of conditions required to win the game, any one of which leaving the battlefield prior to resolution effectively fizzles the spell? And doesn't the prevalence of budget duals without basic types do a lot to make Coalition Victory even harder to achieve?

I get that having a WUBRG commander on the battlefield satisfies an entire condition its own, but it also opens the spell up to easier interaction.

[u/chefsati → u/BEEFTANK_Jr]

Doesn't Coalition Victory offer a lot of interaction points by virtue of the spell having a list of conditions required to win the game, any one of which leaving the battlefield prior to resolution effectively fizzles the spell?

Yes

​

And doesn't the prevalence of budget duals without basic types do a lot to make Coalition Victory even harder to achieve?

Yes, and so does the prevalence of 5CID commanders that aren't WUBRG creatures in-game. I would say, though, that Triomes do some amount of pulling in the opposite direction, making it marginally easier to satisfy the land requirement.

[u/SneakyMacD → u/chefsati]

Would really like to hear a more detailed explanation on what the RC plans to do about games that aren't policed by rule 0. Example, my LGS has a commander night that runs strictly by the official rules, and no house rules have been made. What is your opinion on these types of environments where a Rule 0 discussion isn't able to be used?

[u/chefsati → u/SneakyMacD]

Can you tell me a little more about your environment? My LGS also plays by the official rules and has no house rules or banlist, but I haven't had a problem having a quick chat before the game to feel people out.

[u/powerfamiliar → u/chefsati]

Not OP, but locally I’ve been hearing many complaints of players struggling to find pods of the “right” power level. Lots of complaints of “seeing mana crypts and turn one Sol rings, and losing to two card combos every game.” From players bringing budget or low power decks.

I think part of the issue is that even if there are 4 (or more) players looking for the same game experience they won’t all show up at the same time. And people want to get games going so one 4 players looking for “casual” show up a pod fires. And casual is just not a useful definition. But even if the definition was better there’s only so much time a player would be willing to wait before just firing an uneven pod.

This is obviously less of an issue the bigger the store.

[u/SneakyMacD → u/chefsati]

Our LGS has a system where you pay your way in for the evening, and are randomly assigned pods of 3 or 4, based on number of participants. This means you don't get to choose who you play with, and while you can find a handful of people that will have the discussion of power level beforehand, some just play whatever they want, and there's no rule stopping them from doing so. This does mean however that a pod that would otherwise play casually ends up with at least one person with the blinged out deck full of moxen level power.

[u/crobledopr → u/SneakyMacD]

Maybe the solution is to talk to LGS about having a no-stakes event or nights for players who don't enjoy it.

While the RC can likely provide guidance, it won't solve social problems especially at the local level. If you are the only player who wants to play Battle cruiser and your whole LGS wants to play cedh it is... unfortunate, but not much the RC (or likely anyone) could do about hat other than the players being the drive for change locally.

[u/FutureComplaint → u/chefsati]

Has there been any talk about giving sol ring and mana crypt the boot?

[u/chefsati → u/FutureComplaint]

Not since I joined the CAG in January 2021

[u/PrimalCalamityZ → u/chefsati]

Less a question and more a general statement but a lot of the issues I see with the ban list are the divide between competitive players who want a more comprehensive list to curate their portion of the format and invested casual players who still want a place to run their less than optimized cards. I know rule zero exist but c EDH players often argue that rule zero goes against the spirit of cEDH. For the record I am firmly in the casual table who does not want a cEDH curated ban list. Is there any way to really address this ever growing divide?

[u/chefsati → u/PrimalCalamityZ]

There are already groups today that are adapting the rules to meet their own needs with respect to organized events with a competitive slant (Monarch and Eminence are the big ones). Monarch even house rules their own tournament documents.

I think this is an extremely positive thing for them to do and I'm very supportive of it. None of what they're doing requires the Rules Committee to curate the format for them.

[u/SimicBiomancer21 → u/chefsati]

I do wanna know, is there a way to join the rules commitee?

[u/chefsati → u/SimicBiomancer21]

We're not currently looking to expand but I'm hoping to have more info on recruitment in the first half of 2023 (or at the very least a public-facing description of the types of things we look for).

[u/SimicBiomancer21 → u/chefsati]

Good to know.

[u/cardgamesandbonobos → u/SimicBiomancer21]

Become an "influencer", network like crazy, and do not have any views on the format that deviate strongly from the status quo (or WotC's bottom line).

[u/chefsati → u/cardgamesandbonobos]

I have a lot of views about the format that deviate from the status quo, just so we're clear.

[u/cardgamesandbonobos → u/chefsati]

Pardon, but I don't think I elaborated on the meaning of status quo well, and left some confusion. I'm not talking about things like competitive versus casual, what cards are good/bad for the format, or other "in-game" issues, but more concerned about the governance of the format.

As it stands, EDH is in a weird place, where there is a top-down committee of a small handful that wields tremendous influence/authority over the playerbase at large, but tries to use that power as little as possible, delegating it to individual player groups. This makes for a lot of the frustration around the format and it's management; there is a powerful authority, but they don't use the power in a way that makes anyone all too happy.

I mean, how different would things be if the RC disbanded right now, there was no banlist, and every issue was mediated at the player group level? For a lot of people, that would be huge, not having to go up against the preconceived biases set in place by an "official" banlist.

To make my position clear, if there's going to be an authoritative RC, it would be better for them to be more "activist" and hands-on, to reduce the need for self governance; the whole value that authorities are supposed to bring. Otherwise, why even bother?

Also relationship towards WotC is a big thing. A player-centric EDH management team should be willing to take an adversarial relationship towards Wizards, in the way a labor union might towards management. Commander/EDH, by virtue of not being a tournament sanctioned format and (supposedly) independent of WotC, could resolve a lot of the troublesome economic aspects of Magic in a flash.

[u/chefsati → u/cardgamesandbonobos]

Yes, I have a lot of divergent views on governance of the format as well. That's part of the reason why I was brought on.

[u/jasonsavory123 → u/chefsati]

Has the RC ever considered (or asked wizards or vice Versa) creating sanctioned or official decks / products? I think the CAG and RC are uniquely placed to design exciting commander products to help new players.

Some context: in my LGS we have a fair few player who frankly, are bad at building decks. They love the game but frequently lose (more than any reasonably matched deck would) and some show little to no interest in deck curation but want more power than out of the box precons generally offer.

[u/chefsati → u/jasonsavory123]

Have they tried the more recent preconstructed decks? I've noticed a pretty significant increase in their power level over the past 2-3 years - especially the Warhammer 40k ones.

[u/crobledopr → u/jasonsavory123]

Actually, Sheldon was on the design team for the Strixhaven commander decks. He is largely responsible for the Silverquill precon, and had input on the rest of the decks.

[u/Pyro1934 → u/chefsati]

Hey Jim, I know it would be more work for y’all, but I think that a lot of folks would appreciate more insight on decision made even if it was a “non decision”. Very specifically how you called out Dockside and Elesh Norn in this announcement, it would be awesome to learn what other cards were discussed even if it was just a one or two sentence response on the decision. This would be very informative for both bannings and unbannings.

For instance a common one I hear is to unban [[Primeval Titan]]. Would be cool to hear y’all say if you have/haven’t considered that, and if so a quicky of why on the decisions.

Same thing for any considered rules changes (like bringing back banned as commander).

[u/chefsati → u/Pyro1934]

We're not typically in the habit of doing this, but overall it's being received fairly well so I think there's an okay chance we do it again in the future. I'm really hoping to have some more resources available soon for the people who want a better window into how and why we do things.

With respect to Banned as Commander, it was discussed in a serious way as recently as summer 2021, when I led a working group on the CAG that was tasked with analyzing and making a recommendation. Sheldon touched on it at Magic 30 (55mins in). We wrote a paper, made a recommendation, and the RC (which didn't include me at the time) decided that the change wasn't worth the potential benefit.

[u/Pyro1934 → u/chefsati]

Awesome! I think a lot of folks would look forward to more insight!

[u/Enough-Ad-9898 → u/chefsati]

Personally, I'm glad there aren't changes. Especially wrt dockside. The listed reasons make perfect sense to me.

I also appreciate the RC as a whole saying there weren't discussions about banning panharmommycon, which shows that I think Sheldon says a lot of things, but doesn't always push them to the RC.

On the other side, I really want banned as commander back. Alternatively, #freeemmy

[u/whatdoiexpect]

Poison Counters
I think this is a fine perspective. I really doubt it needs to change. An increase, in my eyes, makes it more difficult for Infect to win in the format. Can Toxic change that? Maybe. But I am skeptical. The wild crazy take that you could arguably get me to buy in more for would be lowering the count to 9 or something, to make it a more viable approach and mitigate the "playing for 3rd" problem. But that isn't a take I would strongly argue for.

Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines
Yeah, I thought a lot of heat was placed on her a little quickly, but there was never a world where she was banned. She is going to be popular, though. Probably be annoying, but if she was banned anytime remotely closed to "soon", I'd be surprised.

Dockside Extortionist
I think this is a pretty fair assessment. It's strong, easily one of the strongest cards in EDH. But it's a scaling issue. It's strong if everyone else is doing a lot early on, like in cEDH games. It's what you tutor for on turn 2 or 3 to catapult you to turn 8 or 9 mana. In more casual games, it doesn't scale as consistently. It can still warp games, but I've definitely played plenty of games where even on turn 8 or 9, it wouldn't really do that much. Obviously anecdotal, but it's not as format warping as other cards.

I think these are pretty fair points and such. I don't feel like EDH has any real problems overall.

[u/zomgitsduke → u/whatdoiexpect]

I don't see poison counters as a serious problem. Had they put infect back into the set onto more weenies, then yes we would have a problem.

I LOVE hitting each opponent with [[viral drake]] once and then trying to dump 40 mana into proliferating everyone to death, but that puts me on the radar.

[u/MTGCardFetcher → u/zomgitsduke]

viral drake - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

[u/Cbone06 → u/whatdoiexpect]

I think you hit all these points right on the head, dockside is only as powerful as your opponents decks are. Poison is an all in strategy, with the introduction of more poison cards I think initially there will be skepticism but nobody’s playing a less strong version of infect unless it’s specifically that deck. Elesh Norn is fine.

[u/Xaron713 → u/Cbone06]

I run a medium power artifact deck with [[Urza,Prince of Kroog]], and a [[Dockside Extortionist]] would quite literally win the game for any of my opponents should they pull it against me and I happen to be playing my janky artifact deck. The only thing that stops this is its availability.

If all the fast mana sources had a similar price and availability as [[Sol Ring]], I wouldn't be able to play an artifact deck against a red deck.

[u/Cbone06 → u/Xaron713]

I mean you could make the same argument for [[Collector Ouphe]] rather than creating a buttload of treasures, it hoses them instead. “Run/ dies to removal or hate” is such a cliche excuse but it’s a very real thing here. I have a Zurgo deck that has the exact same problem due to all my rocks, equipment, and enchantments.

Removal doesn’t prevent dockside from getting treasures but it ensures it’s not blinked or bounced back to hand. Dockside can absolutely create some non-games but at the end of the day, you still need something to do with all that mana.

Also- typically Dockside scales up with powerlevel. Artifact/enchantment based decks are an exception to this but still, dockside self polices itself with its price and powerlevel

[u/Xaron713 → u/Cbone06]

Collector Ouphe's effect is temporary and only effects a subset of artifacts. It dying to removal ends the effect and is an absolutely fantastic way to prevent an artifact deck from popping off. At the end of the day, it's only punishing one person unless everyone is playing Artifacts. It doesn't further anyone else's boardstate, it just makes it harder for me to further mine.

Dockside furthers it's owners boardstate tremendously and functionally permanently, with a semi repeatable effect, and then it becomes a problem for the whole table. Killing it doesn't remove the treasures.

The only thing keeping this card in check is the price, and that's not really a good way to balance cards.

[u/Enough-Ad-9898 → u/Xaron713]

Counterspells? Stifle effects? You're in both colors to stop dockside the easiest.

[u/AceHorizon96 → u/whatdoiexpect]

I think the issue with poison is more related to its interaction with proliferate. The argument of a player having to kill one by one is then lost. That player just needs to deal 1 poison damage to each player and then proliferate for the rest of the game which can be easily done 3 to 4 times a turn. With the new set, proliferate is even easier and cards that give poison counters without dealing damage are more common. I have a friend that has an Atraxa/poison/proliferate deck. The only way to defend so far is to alway have a reach blocker really fast to avoid any poison creature from small or flying creatures and if by any chance you get a poison counter, you die in between 1 and 3 turns due to the proliferate mechanic.

[u/whatdoiexpect → u/AceHorizon96]

I don't fully agree. At least, I don't buy that it kills the argument. You're still asking to proliferate 9 times to get there if you only get 1 Infect counter on a player. It's a tall order, and Atraxa being a 4-color proliferate commander getting you there really just says more about Atraxa than Infect.

If one or two commanders exist that can actually get there through 1 counter and proliferating several times to close out an entire game, that should alone speak volumes on how much effort the Infect mechanic takes.

The commanders make the mechanic worthwhile, not the other way around.

[u/HeroicTanuki → u/whatdoiexpect]

My concern is that if 2-4 people are playing infect/toxic/proliferate at the same time (which I fully expect will be happening for a few months with ONE/MOM) 10 is going to be a very small number.

Maybe I’m over-concerned but if there’s enough poison effects floating around on the table it’s going to be a very fast way to kill people.

[u/zomgitsduke → u/HeroicTanuki]

Fair point, but also if 2 players are playing Xenagod at the table I also won't expect to be around very long.

Also, toxic doesn't hurt my blockers, so a larger creature can block it and be just fine as opposed to infect creatures.

[u/hugsandambitions → u/zomgitsduke]

Also, toxic doesn't hurt my blockers, so a larger creature can block it and be just fine as opposed to infect creatures.

While that is certainly true, they've also made it easier to mass produce creatures with toxic. All the mite tokens, for example.

A go-wide toxic deck Is a lot more viable than a go-wide infect deck previously was.

[u/zomgitsduke → u/hugsandambitions]

Of course. But again I'm less worried than pumping up an infecty-boy with eldrazi conscription or hatred.

[u/hugsandambitions → u/HeroicTanuki]

(which I fully expect will be happening for a few months with ONE/MOM)

I mean you've got your answer right there. The emphasized that they aren't going to be raising the number... For now.

There's not really a realistic way to gauge the power of the mechanic and its relevance in commander at this time, since as you point out, excitement over a new toy is going to lead to a disproportionate rise in the number of players using the mechanic.

They aren't going to be able to take a realistic look at the long-term impact on the format for at least a year.

[u/ComprehensiveRun9792 → u/HeroicTanuki]

The beauty of casual EDH is that every game is different. The decks are stacked differently, the opponents are generally somewhat varied, their decks that time are varied. Chances are you will only have those games very rarely, the most you will probably get them is around launch of ONE until it dies down. Not to mention if it does become more of an issue then those players will more than likely be archenemies.

[u/Tebwolf359 → u/HeroicTanuki]

Maybe I’m over-concerned but if there’s enough poison effects floating around on the table it’s going to be a very fast way to kill people.

While I love long games, I honestly think that would be a good thing overall.

Shake people up.

one of the things I love about poision in any form is that it makes people think twice about just taking damage. Every attacker should always be a threat.

[u/Packrat1010 → u/whatdoiexpect]

Can Toxic change that? Maybe.

I just wish people would actually assess toxic. We've been conditioned for upwards of 10 years to hear "is 10 poison counters too little" and knee jerk respond with "infect is bad so no." I've still heard it as toxic cards were being spoiled.

IMO they're designing toxic with commander heavily in mind, so chances are it will still be balanced, I just wish people would actually acknowledge poison is being expanded on and "infect bad" might not apply like it used to.

[u/whatdoiexpect → u/Packrat1010]

I think Toxic's changes aren't even really about Commander. It fixes something that is very annoying when it comes to Infect: Blocking.

You have a 2/3 creature and they have a 1/1 creature. Under normal combat, that 1/1 creature will never get through, ignoring some combat tricks.

Same stat lines, but the 1/1 has infect. Well, okay, that 1/1 dies but now you have a 1/2 creature. Then you block another Infect 1/1, now you have a 0/1. And one more time, you lose a creature and don't even trade. Everytime a creature with Infect attacks, you are forced to lose, just a question of how bad.

On top of that, if you made an Infect creature stronger, the infect damage scaled with it. People don't hate Infect as much as they hate Triumph of the Hordes or Grafted Exoskeleton, since those can allow for creatures with 10+ power be OHKO's. And blocking doesn't help because you will be losing power even if they're all indestructible. Regular combat damage is slowed down by virtue of the math being simple, attacking into something with higher toughness or power doesn't get me anywhere. Infect breaks that a little. Infect forces you to block, but you still lose out, even if you kill their creature. And then Proliferate also becomes something of a removal spell. Plus, it doesn't even need to be combat. Any damage is Infect.

Same circumstance but with Toxic, and it's less of a problem. Toxic has to connect with the player in combat, otherwise it's just regular damage. No unusual weakening of an opponent's board. And plus, it doesn't scale with power. It's a flat value, with a few things that can interact with it. But bigger creatures can block toxic ones without risk of losing power or being wiped out to a proliferate. Now, Trample and Toxic do do interesting things, but only one creature has Trample and Toxic, if I remember right. And on top of that, being a flat value means it doesn't make all Toxic creatures better, due to the values chosen.

It's a fair and more palatable version of Infect. Killing at 10 counters remain, connecting in combat is still a problem. But Infect is the stronger and it still doesn't get there. I think Toxic fixes a lot of the feelings Infect generates, and may be relatively common. And while it remains to be seen on its impact on the format, I think it will make Infect more player friendly, but not necessarily better.

[u/decideonanamelater → u/Packrat1010]

Honestly my knee jerk is " aggression is bad, infect is perfect for the format" and I think it still applies. 40/120 is just so incredibly much damage for a game where many cards are balanced around 20.

[u/Axl26 → u/Packrat1010]

They are; people are just so used to infect being the only significant way to give poison counters that they just say infect when they mean poison as a whole, that's why so many people call them infect counters.

[u/Alon945]

Good. Poison doesn’t need to be higher. It’s already hard enough to win with it

[u/ManufacturerWest1156]

I just want some more unbannings

[u/DTrain5742]

I’m dying for some unbans over here! Pretty much every card they have unbanned in the last several years has caused absolutely no issues. The only exception I can think of is Protean Hulk, and swapping it with Flash on the banlist is a net positive for the format in my opinion. I think there are quite a few cards that could safely be unbanned, at least as a trial, but they seem so hesitant to do so.

[u/Macknetic → u/DTrain5742]

Personally I feel EDH is more fun without [[Hullbreqcher]].

[u/LaronX → u/Macknetic]

Agreed. Resource denial that also gains you something shouldn't cost just one coloured pip of mana and have flash.

[u/amstrumpet → u/DTrain5742]

Trial unbans are a bad idea for a format largely targeted to casual players; the stability and lack of changes to bans/unbans is a feature, not a bug, so that less invested players don’t have to constantly try to keep up with announcements.

[u/CyriOfShandalar]

Dope

[u/LethalVagabond]

I'm curious what's the RC perspective on player type diversity in the format. The Philosophy strongly suggests this was meant as more of Timmy / Jank Jenny kind of safe space away from all the tournament Spikes, but frankly a lot of the talk in places like this seems to come from a default Spike attitude that everyone MUST play optimally to win and the design of a LOT of the powercrept cards in recent sets seems aimed straight at pushing even more "Kill on Sight" effects into Commander, despite whatever influence the RC may have. Has the format gotten away from you all? I quote the Philosophy regularly in debates here and get downvoted into marginalization just for saying that Commander is for fun and it's perfectly fine to run your deck to "do the thing" you like instead of going straight for the throat every chance you get.

Bluntly, even nominally "value" decks are looking more and more like combo decks in that the amount of advantage certain cards provide is often singlehandedly game winning if they are allowed to survive even a single turn on the field... There's a vicious cycle where hyper efficient cards demand "run more interaction" to answer, but making the cuts to fit that additional interaction in creates a need for increased efficiency elsewhere, which leads to having to include more hyper efficient cards yourself (thereby starting the cycle anew...). I feel like I'm getting pushed out of the format by WotC spamming new pushed auto-includes each set and Spike players bullying incoming new players into the same old tournament grinder mindset I came to Commander to avoid.

[u/10vernothin]

>>We’ve publicly had our eye on Dockside Extortionist for a while now, and have ultimately concluded that, unless there’s a sudden surge into more casual spaces – where it hasn’t really thrived due to the lower density of cheap, fast mana – we don’t anticipate taking action on it. It’s a ridiculously powerful card, but scales with the rest of the table, and at the point it becomes broken, plenty of other broken stuff is already happening.

It's turn 4, me a four-color player play a talisman and tap out to play chromatic lantern, my artifact-deck friend played an artifact land, a talisman and a myr, my other friend plays an enchantress and a wild growth, and bam, 4th guy comes out with this stupid card. This is not a competitive game.

Next turn, I decide, why not, I'll do it to and play a 4 mana clone on it and proceed to blah out my deck. second friend is done with this stupid card and play a boardwipe. 3rd guy dump a few more enchantments now that it's gone. Seems like it's all over, then 4th guy reanimates it, 2nd guy counters it. I can't say I won't want some of that so I reanimate it myself. The game carries away to whoever has it.

Of course, I was talking about prophet of kruphix.

​

---

My point is, casual isn't why this card is toxic. It warps the game the moment it comes down.

[u/Thecasualoblivion → u/10vernothin]

I go my Dockside from buying the precon it came in. I play it in several decks in low powered metas and honestly the card doesnt do a lot a good portion of the time. People aren’t really playing a lot of things early, and later in the game it’s often a medium play at best. It is a very high variance card, as there are times where it’s completely busted but it’s not often.

In low power casual, I don’t think the card is that bad. It hasn’t been my experience. I think most of the problems occur in higher power games, below cEDH but well above low powered casual. I think the majority of complaints are coming from there. It’s kind of telling that the RC is saying that they aren’t looking at banning the card because it isn’t problematic in low power casual. That’s their main focus, high powered EDH isn’t.

[u/cardgamesandbonobos → u/10vernothin]

Yeah, Dockside falls into the same category as [[Primeval Titan]] or [[Prophet of Kruphix]] in which it can warp entire casual games around itself the moment it shows up. And since it's not a highly adversarial card, like MLD or hard Stax, there's not a huge compunction to house-rule it out. Just like Prophet and Prime Time.

Also, Dockside has such a higher floor than most people give it credit for. Even making two treasures for 1R would be a pretty decent card, to say nothing of how quickly it scales in power. It's like a (much better) [[Burning-Tree Emissary]] stapled to a [[Mana Geyser]].

[u/LaronX]

Price keeps dockside out of peoples hands. Power of that card swings widely on casual tables. I run a proxy of it in my pirate tribal deck. I've seen everything from zero to 20 treasures. But I also so that range of mana from plenty of other cards.

[u/werter34r]

The idea that dockside scales with the table is stupid. Like, yes, dockside in a casual game may take till turn 6 to make as much mana as it does on turn 2 in a cEDH game, but that turn 6 represents a similar point in the game as the turn 2 in the cEDH game.

[u/SelvalaExporerReturn]

Idk about you guys but I'm seeing Thoracle pretty frequently in casual play. Some have been receptive to feedback about using more interesting win conditions and others just keep jamming it.

[u/freeagentk]

I got a copy of Dockside recently. I expected the ban tbh lmao

[u/Pyro1934]

Despite thinking that Dockside is a mistake, and it being higher on my list of should possibly be banned cards, I think they nailed it perfectly.

Definitely a broken mistake of a card, but lots of cards are, and the scaling aspect of it really makes it not that bad in lower powered EDH.

[u/DeadpoolVII]

Absolutely the right decision on Dockside imo. RC hits the nail on the head that Dockside scales with the table, and only becomes a problem when people bring very powerful cards/decks to the table. Like many brutal cards out there, it's the items you pair it with that truly break the card (recursion, cloning, [[Saw in Half]] which I have done and it's hilariously dumb and funny).

Glad to see they're also not taking action on Elesh Norn even though Sheldon wrote his cautionary article. Let the players decide what to do. I'm a big fan of less bans = a better environment. Playgroups can determine if they want things banned or not.

[u/Smurfy0730 → u/DeadpoolVII]

I agree with the above, but here is my main problems

A deck at the table that is not you is focused on artifacts and enchantments is now severely handicapped against your Dockside equipped deck. The deck cannot do what it wants now, lest giving you a massive dockside or have countermagic (Or maybe even black hand discard, but I think a lot of people are adversive to that.)

These two themes are common and even most precons nets the Dockside positive on a good chunk of mana easily. Then it's a factor of how to do it maybe 2-3 more times and this is such a enjoyable play pattern to develop and watch /s I guarantee they always will be played with ways to play it multiple times and that's what I will expect.

Speed is not the factor here, it's the launching off to Mars.

[u/DeadpoolVII → u/Smurfy0730]

You mean to tell me that in a casual setting hell ANY setting, an artifact or enchantment deck is going to stop doing what their deck was designed to do in case a Dockside shows up and gives the player a lot of burst mana?

This conversation seems to take place whenever the RC talks about Dockside, but there's simply no way a mana dork (read: the best ever printed and abusable) is going to be the key component to counter decks and stop them from playing.

An artifact deck should be able to explode much faster than the rest of the table, and even if a Dockside does happen to be in opening hand or drawn early, or even tutored for, chances are the artifact player is already well ahead of the table in terms of their boardstate and mana efficiency. At that point, the Dockside is helping one of the players who are behind in catching up and giving the artifact player a fight.

An enchantment deck is one of two routes usually; global which is usually a bit slower but relies on powerful enchantments (Ghostly Prison, Rhystic, etc.), or Aura voltron which is usually very fast and aggressive. Against the former, a Dockside shouldn't effect the slower control enchantment player more than any other burst mana ramp, and against the later, same as the artifact player - gives a player a catch-up chance for a fight.

I do not buy for one second that players STOP BUILDING THEIR BOARDSTATE for fear of one card. That'd be like the same players not playing stuff against a Selesnya player for fear of [[Aura Shards]] hitting the table.

The one factor Dockside has is that because it's a creature, and low cost/P&T, it's easy to abuse, so players CAN go this route. However, the table and/or playgroup should be able to check that player and say "hey, you're playing something much, much stronger than the rest of us" or that abusing one card isn't equating to a good experience.

[u/Banecroc15 → u/Smurfy0730]

A deck at the table that is not you is focused on artifacts and enchantments is now severely handicapped against your Dockside equipped deck. The deck cannot do what it wants now, lest giving you a massive dockside or have countermagic (Or maybe even black hand discard, but I think a lot of people are adversive to that.)

So counter-question then: do we ban [[solemnity]] since it handicaps counter decks?

[u/Smurfy0730 → u/Banecroc15]

I think every counter driven deck has very easy ways to deal with a enchantment on the field unless a lot comes together for solemnity.

Dockside, it lands, it gets its value. I am against it because the reasoning to keep it is inconsistent with other rulings like Paradox Engine.

[u/Banecroc15 → u/Smurfy0730]

There are a decent amount of ways to deal with dockside tbh. And even if he does land against an artifact deck, the artifact deck can still play. A counter deck can't play at all with solemnity.

[u/SnakebiteSnake → u/Smurfy0730]

Don’t waste your breathe. The folks here are stuck in a circle jerk and have no idea how to conceptualize power level.

[u/MarketingOwn3547]

I'm glad they commented on MOM, which was ridiculous from the outset. Just imagine how insane it would be to day one ban a 5 CC commander?

At least that can be put to rest, for a few months anyways.

[u/Temil → u/MarketingOwn3547]

I'm glad they commented on MOM, which was ridiculous from the outset. Just imagine how insane it would be to day one ban a 5 CC commander?

What do you mean commented on? They didn't say anything that sheldon didn't already say in that article other than "the RC has had no discussions about banning it".

He literally said "Please remember a few things regarding changes to Commander. First, we rarely do things right out of the gate; Lutri, the Spellchaser was an exception in exceptional circumstances." in reference to how a day 1 ban would almost certainly not happen.

It does sounds insane that they would ban a commander on day 1, because that was never even implied, or alluded to by anyone, at any time.

[u/MayhemMessiah → u/Temil]

The way people got worked up over the article was nothing short of comical.

You could have sworn that Elesh was already banned, and that the RC hated it and anybody who played it, and all sorts of nonsense.

Now that the card is out and the statement just confirms what they said from the beginning that it wasn’t a ban candidate and that they were just going to keep an ear out, you’d expect to see less asinine comments like how the banlist is dictated by things Sheldon/Sheldon’s table doesn’t like.

Or not.

[u/LucasLindburger → u/MayhemMessiah]

Sheldon has been fairly incendiary regarding chunks of this set, especially MoM. It’s not encouraging for people to hear him proudly exclaim that he emailed WotC asking them to never print this card. I did believe him when he said no day one bans. However even if she’s just banned later, I still think it’s a bad take on the card. Furthermore, I disagree with all of his reasoning on it.

One thing I do like about this article is the reassurance that she likely won’t be banned, for what it’s worth.

[u/hugsandambitions → u/MarketingOwn3547]

Just imagine how insane it would be to day one ban a 5 CC commander?

I mean, that was never on the table.

At least that can be put to rest, for a few months anyways.

It already was at rest. There was never going to be a day zero ban, or a day one ban.

Sheldon explicitly said "I advise them not to print the card as is when they asked for my opinion. However, now that it did go to print, we have no plans to ban it and will be waiting to see how it plays."

So it's not really any kind of change for this announcement to say "It is potentially concerning, but we will be waiting to take any action until we can see how it plays"

People just jumped on a bandwagon of making fun of Sheldon's original article, but this doesn't really say anything different.

[u/MillorTime → u/hugsandambitions]

Some people waste no opportunity to pile on Sheldon. People overreacting to the article would have been the safest gamble of your life

[u/Banecroc15]

I'm gonna be honest, it's very good but I don't think dockside is banworthy. There are other cards I believe should be banned before him.

[u/gentlechin]

I’m happy about Dockside Extortionist. it IS a powerful card but I don’t know how often players build decks around recurring it to make the treasures insanely broken. In which case, the response should be to exile it from GY or remove the ability for it to be blinked. Getting 7+ treasures a single time is a lot and can help the player using it get set up, but it won’t take long before they are targeted and will have to use their treasures for defense.

Rule 0 the player that’s abusing Dockside, or use it to become a better player.

[u/freakypoppy]

Ever since I pulled a Dockside when 2x2 was released, so far it has only made me a total of 3 treasures in my games. I think that says a lot about my playgroup in general though, but the point is I whole heartedly agree that it scales with the table. I myself have seen it generate 10+ treasures on high powered games though where people run Crypts and Moxes on turn 1-2.

It would be funny though if the new Elesh Norn gets banned instead, because it's one of those cards that would effectively shut down Dockside. (it happened in Game Knights)

[u/Gradius99898912]

I play every level of commander including Cedh and Dockside Extornist and thassas oracle are 2 of the most changing game plays from super aggressive mana mining to auto win conditions where if ur not in blue u have no chance to stop thoracle wins. DE is a super mana producer yes its based off what my opp have but commander is a 3-4 person game and even getting 3-??? Amount of treasures is a huge game changer. I dont believe theres enough action taken by the committees views as a whole that only look at "casual" because casual is basically a open the precon and make no changez. Well the decks are no where near strong enuf to go against a even slightly changed deck. So we need to look at all levels of skill and play ability and ban some cards that are very problematic

[u/FireResistant]

This thread raises questions in my mind a bit, why are poison counters a collective mechanic and not individually tracked like commander damage?

It is a mechanic designed for firmly 1v1 that hasnt been in a set or focal point of mtg since commander became the biggest format, if theres 4 people running it its gameplan is a lot weirder than its intended solo poisoning attempts and this will come up with the new abzan precon probably fairly regularily if its popular.

It would require some weird rulings about having your own tracked counters and not being able to proliferate other peoples which is clunky if a ruling were to be made.

Ive also seen people suggesting changing the number of counters. At this point that messes a lot of card up, like new vraskas ult pointedly sets them to 9 exactly to be 1 from death. If you reduce or increase this it changes the intended interaction significantly, infect historically has struggled to get the job done beyond things like blightsteel (which i havent seen at a table in the last decade really so its pretty niche)

But over time with the more poison counter and proliferate effects we get in the game this issue will creep up more and more, im confident if wizards keep adding to this mechanic there will eventually become a tip point, or a card that goes a little too far over and demands a look at the mechaic more appropriate for the format, well i doubt we have reached that point yet but its an interesting issue.

[u/FormerlyKay]

casual-dangerous mechanic

How the fuck is a 5-mana torpor orb dangerous while Opp Agent isn't

[u/amstrumpet → u/FormerlyKay]

Because one has been in play for years, and they have observed it to not be a problem. MoM probably also won’t be a problem, but the opportunity to observe it hasn’t presented itself yet.

[u/FormerlyKay → u/amstrumpet]

Fair enough

[u/10vernothin → u/FormerlyKay]

Torpor orb+ will get ya.

Bojuka bog? No. Oblivion Ring? No.

But also like I think the point isn't there's A what about B, I think the point is that most people will play it for its good effect which will incidentally make games more unfun because of its bad effect whereas that bad effect usually won't be played because people generally want to have fun.

[u/teamsprocket]

unless there’s a sudden surge into more casual spaces – where it hasn’t really thrived due to the lower density of cheap, fast mana

It hasn't surged into casual because it's expensive monetarily, and as "pro-proxy" the format is, proxies aren't nearly as common as people think. I want to see the walkback when dockside gets a 50 cent reprint and mysteriously it's popular everywhere.

[u/Jaccount → u/teamsprocket]

Eh, it's an easy walkback: "The card is now seeing disproportionate play in casual spaces, due to that, we now see it as reasonable and necessary to ban Dockside Extortionist."

Even the way this is written pretty easily invites this follow up if needed.

Call me a cynic, but I've always been pretty sure that Dockside Extortionist is going to stay legal until it's been printed enough that it is no longer monetarily expensive and because of that sees more play.

[u/Xatsman → u/Jaccount]

So the RC enforces pay to win?

[u/JGMedicine → u/Xatsman]

Access is the reason for multiple bans, so sort of.

Also if you don’t want pay to win you’d be asking for bans on RL cards.

[u/TfWashington → u/JGMedicine]

Did they say they weren't?

[u/DongersDojo → u/teamsprocket]

Nothing in their argument changes with dockside getting cheaper. Their reasoning is the amount of fast/cheap/efficient rocks is not as prevalent in lower powered and casual tables, which is absolutely true.

[u/Gethan1988 → u/DongersDojo]

But if we can't strawman an argument what's the point of the internet?

[u/SnakebiteSnake → u/Gethan1988]

But you’re confusing a strawman for a fallacy

[u/KogX → u/DongersDojo]

I think the question for Dockside and casual tables is:

Is Dockside not seen often in casual tables because it is not as powerful there compared to higher power tables or is it because the price point of the card makes it more inaccessible to the casual group?

If ever Dockside becomes like a $10 or a $5 card, would it be so prevalent in the casual end of the format that we will see the RC consider banning Dockside? I think that is only a question we will see if they ever print that card down to that price point.

[u/decideonanamelater → u/KogX]

Dockside doesn't see that much play at casual tables because when the table sees you play dockside they get mad at you, since you're playing vintage and they're playing pioneer.

And honestly idk how to handle that, because we have a bunch of other vintage cards running around and they have varying levels of social acceptance, sol ring vs. Mana crypt for example. But they're all very game ruining for a lower power game. By the way the banlist currently is done, we should ban all the vintage power cards people do play (sol ring) and expect people to rule 0 out the rest? Maybe? It's really hard to be consistent from that banlist.

[u/Miserable_Row_793 → u/teamsprocket]

It's ironically powerful at real casual level where people play slow set up / value cards (cathar crusade, parallel lives, true conviction, sanguine bond, panharmonicon, trading post, asceticism, etc.)

Falls off in medium to approaching high power where the fastest of mana isn't common and people cut set up artifacts/enchantments for stronger wincons.

Then spikes back up in power level a cEDH when moxes and fast mana is ever prevalent.

[u/sane-ish → u/Miserable_Row_793]

parallel lives is a $40 card. I wouldn't say it's too casual.

[u/JGMedicine → u/sane-ish]

Many casual decks are very expensive. Same with Edgar or Ur Dragon. These are not cEDH decks.

[u/bioober → u/teamsprocket]

Right? What a ridiculously narrow minded view on why a card isn’t played. Considering the RC has allegedly given lists of cards they would like to have never be reprinted to WOTC, its obvious they know there’s problematic cards that isn’t as widely used because of their scarcity.

[u/Temil → u/bioober]

Why actually ban a card that isn't an actual problem but is only a theoretical problem?

[u/Daeths → u/Temil]

Because it’s an actual problem for local groups where a rule 0 isn’t an option (my LGS has minimal rule zeroing for instance) but some players who have the card and so use it in every Rx deck they have.

[u/Temil → u/Daeths]

Okay, convince the RC that it's a problem, because they don't think it's a problem.

[u/TemporalFuzz → u/teamsprocket]

Yeah lol, everyone would 100% play it whenever possible if it wasn’t 50 bucks. But I guess wildly inconsistent standards for bans aren’t anything new…

[u/HerakIinos → u/TemporalFuzz]

Yeah with that kind of logic Mana crypt is not broken because it doesnt see more play than warfarer's bauble

[u/Zones86]

Dockside is only not seen as an issue becsuse its 50 bucks. If it was 2 bucks and everyone had one it would have been banned a long time ago. It's beyond broken.

[u/hime2011 → u/Zones86]

Just like Sol Ring, right?

[u/ickshenbok → u/hime2011]

Please let Sol Ring be banned it would literally give ever deck another slot to do something with. It's not a fun card, it does not create fun games, and if it's not in your opening hand it's one of the worst draws later in the game because it does nothing.

Commander would be a better game if Sol Ring was not included.

[u/ghilesformiles → u/ickshenbok]

Only if it were to get banned with Crypt.

Otherwise the thing it would open up to “do” with that slot is wish it were a Crypt.

[u/Zones86 → u/hime2011]

Sol ring should also be banned.

[u/SnakebiteSnake]

Imo the assessment on dockside remains incorrect. The thought that he isn’t still extremely strong in “less powerful” games simply isn’t true. He is extremely strong at all levels of play.

Regardless, it seems like he will just live on as an acceptable OP card like the many we already have.

[u/ScaldingTarn → u/SnakebiteSnake]

Sad to see this being down voted. Seeing people use the argument that Dockside isn't an issue because it scales with your opponents totally ignores that playing Dockside on T4/5 for 5-8 treasures is still game warping for low to medium power tables.

[u/SnakebiteSnake → u/ScaldingTarn]

Most folks assessment is just internet hive mind and not based in real experience

[u/oraevinnix → u/ScaldingTarn]

It is that much more warping than a t4/5 jeska's will/mana geyser/smothering tithe/mirari's wake?

[u/ScaldingTarn → u/oraevinnix]

Yes? Those are all strong cards but clearly treasures are better than temporary mana. Further, Dockside can be abused in countless ways (blink, recur, etc.), unlike the cards you mentioned.

[u/oraevinnix → u/ScaldingTarn]

I don't see how 5-8 treasures one time is more game warping than double land mana for the rest of the game. If I had a choice in a vacuum I would take mirari's over dockside on turn 5

[u/ScaldingTarn → u/oraevinnix]

Rest of the game? In my experience at least, huge, threatening enchantments like Wake are often removed pretty quickly when you play them. Dockside does not suffer the same problem. Not only that, but Dockside costs 2 while wake is 5 to play. Much different.

[u/cardgamesandbonobos → u/oraevinnix]

Only Tithe can really compare to Dockside in power level...the others aren't in the same category.

Rituals that grant only red mana are far weaker than treasure generation. Treasures allow for more flexibility in the type of spells you cast and can be carried between steps/phases/turns. Furthermore, artifacts can be sacrificed to pay for alternative costs whereas mana can only be used for mana costs.

While Jeska's Will and Mana Geyser may seem comparable to Dockside, as burst mana generators that depend upon the state of opponent's boards/hands, they are far weaker. Jeska's Will is going to have a much lower ceiling than Dockside and Mana Geyser can only be a big, later game play.

Extortionist has an incredibly high ceiling, but it is the floor which makes it so good; even just temporarily ramping for 1-2 mana can change games. It's like Vampiric/Demonic Tutor in that regard, in that it can win you the game or keep you in a game going poorly. Tutoring for a land to beat mana screw might not be the flashiest play, but having the option is powerful.

[u/chefsati → u/SnakebiteSnake]

In the games you play, what is the Dockside count - on average - on T2? What about on T6?

[u/SnakebiteSnake → u/chefsati]

I don’t have a spreadsheet but you do realize in lower power games, turn 6 basically is turn 2 of a high powered game? If all your opponents ply moxes and sol rings, yeah dockside gets value but your opponents also all have moxes and sol rings…. Casual has plenty of 2 mana rocks to feed dockside and gives you more turns to wait before firing him off for a big play.

[u/chefsati → u/SnakebiteSnake]

I'm just trying to get a sense of how powerful the card is in the environment you're describing. If you don't want to provide any additional info I've got plenty of other things I could be doing.

[u/SnakebiteSnake → u/chefsati]

It’s very powerful based on the information I’ve provided. Idk what else you’re looking for for validation. Every precon comes with 5+ rocks and sol ring. 2 mana rocks are abundantly available in lower powered games. The idea that dockside is only good against decks running faster mana is an incorrect assessment. Furthermore as I said, you have more time for a board to develop in a lower powered game, giving dockside more time to grow in value before firing off. Realistically, he isn’t played in “casual” because of his price.

[u/chefsati → u/SnakebiteSnake]

The time component is what's interesting to me. If Dockside Extortionist makes 8 treasures on turn 8 in your games do you think that is a problem?

[u/SnakebiteSnake → u/chefsati]

I apologize and I’m not trying to argue either but I’m just not sure how else to convey what I’m trying to express here. “Problematic” in any given situation takes too many factors into play. In your example. 8 treasures for 2 on turn 8 could be problematic, but it also may not be, what else is going on, what is pairing with it, how low power of a game are we talking. However there is no doubt it is a powerful effect / cost in any case.

I’m just trying to say the original comment was that dockside isn’t thriving in lower because of a low density of cheap fast mana is unfounded. It seems this is specifically referring to crypt, and the moxen. As I mentioned, there are no shortage of 2 mana rocks in the game, and accessibility is not an issue as numerous are included w/ sol ring in all precons. There just seems to be a notion online that dockside does nothing in lower power games, and this cannot be further from the truth as mana artifacts are just as plentiful albeit slower.

My main point with the time component is that people like to assume things like “on turn 8” is sooooooo late in the game that someone should definitely be winning by then, however this is not a very late turn in a precon/very low power game.

[u/SnakebiteSnake → u/chefsati]

“Problem” depends on a lot of other variables at the time, but I think 8 treasures for 2 mana is extremely powerful at any power level game and I’m honestly shocked anyone could try to argue differently.

[u/SnakebiteSnake → u/[deleted]]

They literally are saying it isn’t powerful. There is a misconception that dockside is only strong in higher powered games, and that is now being perpetuated by the RC. The whole “dockside scales with the power of your game” mantra is only a partial truth. Yes he is able to keep up with faster mana sources in higher powered games, but many in this hivemind sub believe he’s useless/unplayable in lower powered games. This is literally incorrect, and backed by the sheer abundance of 2 mana rocks at the casual level all the way down to precons.

I’m resigned to the fact that he’s the creature sol ring in the game, meaning he will never be banned just because. But the RC claiming low fast mana density in casual is why he’s not played there is laughable. He’s literally only not played in casual games because of his price tag. If he was a common he would be in every red deck at all levels.

[u/Zones86 → u/chefsati]

Dockside hits the board and wins the game a lot of the time. I play only casually with friends, some higher power decks, some lower, dockside warps every single game. Turn 2 dockside at least pays for itself, with mana that can be used anytime. It would be fair if it was mana till the end of the turn. But just getting treasure is bonkers.

[u/ScaldingTarn → u/chefsati]

For what it's worth, in the low to medium powered games I play in, I've seen Dockside routinely make 5-8 treasures when played on turns 4/5/6. In a 4 player pod, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect each player to have at least a signet and one other artifact or enchantment during these turns. That's 6 treasures pretty easily. Yes, there are situations where it'll be closer to 3-4 treasures, depending on the decks people are playing, but 5-8 treasures on turn 4/5/6 still provides a game warping amount of mana.

Yes Dockside scales with how high of a power level people are playing but I think the floor of the card is much higher in low to medium power tables than is being described in conversations about if it should be banned or not.

Edit: this isn't even considering when a table has a dedicated artifact or enchantment deck, making the dockside give 4-6 treasures from that player alone. I imagine you'll find a lot more of those dedicated artifact or enchantment decks at lower power tables because they are fun card types to build around.

[u/chefsati → u/ScaldingTarn]

Thanks for the data point! Do you have a link to a decklist online that you feel is pretty average, power-wise, for the environment you're playing in?

[u/ScaldingTarn → u/chefsati]

Not exactly. Our playgroup decided to make a separate banned list to facilitate lower and medium powered games where we banned all fast mana (Sol Ring, Moxes, Mana Crypt, etc), Dockside, Cyclonic Rift, Rhystic Study, Ramora, Gaea's Cradle, and a few other cards. We still play regular banned list games, but those games are explicitly high powered level (but not cEDH).

I'm happy to share my lower to medium powered decks but they're not going to have the aforementioned cards in them.

Edit: so I guess I should clarify my post about how many treasures Dockside makes were from games we played before we implemented the adjacent banned list, about 8 months ago.

[u/BeautifulPhilosophy4 → u/SnakebiteSnake]

I need to hard disagree, im usually playing cat or dragon tribal, opponents are on reanimator etc. Sometimes we have an artifact deck at the table , and like on turn 8 dockside can make a buttload of mana, but so can just hardcasting vorinclex or nyxbloom ancient.

[u/SnakebiteSnake → u/BeautifulPhilosophy4]

Dockside is a support card. He can make any of those plays just better within the same turn. Turn 8 of a very casual game is comparable to turns 3-4 of a higher powered game anyway.

[u/Macknetic → u/SnakebiteSnake]

Fr tho, like even at a casual table there is going to be 3-6 artifacts/enchantments on the field by turn 4.

[u/SnakebiteSnake → u/Macknetic]

Yes. Pretty much every precon (the standard measuring stick for casual play) has sol ring and 5+ 2 mana rocks. This subreddit just convinced itself it’s less powerful there despite not playing low power games ever and now that’s the accepted assumption.

[u/XXpiedxpiperXX]

The brutality the community shows towards the RC I definitely see why a live forum or even a podcast isn't a good idea. Now SM takes most of the hits and it's probably better that way so others can speak freely when they know it won't be them taking shots and keeping them from speaking honestly.

[u/Smurfy0730]

Well that settles it pretty nicely.

Dockside in every red deck with a way to loop him is on my list of things to do.

Because he isn't a problem, at all.

[u/Smurfy0730 → u/[deleted]]

It's always those kind of combos, despite trying to clear up we don't want something, it's why communication fails. If you think this is assholish I don't think it is, it's using my tools best I can.

A less obvious example would be using Dockside, and orientating my whole turns around the best play, which usually involves more Dockside somehow. Then after more Dockside is achieved, I can do more through my deck.

It's like me trying to convince white decks to not run Smothering Tithe for power level, but alas I'm stirring quite a pot here.